<p>MichaelNKat…and that is why we specifically asked those questions to the MT departments and not the reps!</p>
<p>While I realize that it is not the norm, can anybody tell me why there seems to be so much reluctance to the possiblity that there might be 1 or 2 out of 1000 that CAN do it? I feel really bad for the people that cannot make the trip that I did to ask these tough questions, because just reading the advice from this forum might stop people from even exploring the possibilities. I sincerely appreciate all of you encouraging us to go directly to the people that make the decisions and ask the questions, but when we did and reported back, the information seems to be disregarded.</p>
<p>Just a question because I love this forum and all of the great information that it provides, but it does seem to be a bit biased. Can you help me here…anyone?</p>
<p>Britbrat, I don’t think there is a bias as much as a difference in perspective. I also don’t think that it is being said that you can’t double major in a BFA program under ANY circumstances as much as that the circumstances under which it might be done are impractical if not impossible (depending on the specific second major - there is a huge difference between double majoring with engineering as compared to English) or require some compromises that may not be justifiable depending on one’s priorities. In this regard, that is why it has been suggested that any one investigating double majoring identify very specifically the potential double major, talk to the MT department and not admissions reps and, where possible, speak to students who are doing it at the school in question to understand the reality of their lives.</p>
<p>Consider for a moment your own conclusions that “it can be done with enough AP credits going in, a very structured plan for 5 years and possibly the necessity to do some summer classes”. It presupposes taking a fifth year of college and foregoing summer stock performing or other summertime performing that is often considered crucial to a MT student’s professional development and experience. These are major considerations that can render double majoring out of the question due to the cost of an additional year or can result in disrupting the career path of a MT student who intends to try to make it as a performer upon graduation and is behind the eight ball compared to a student who has spent the summers building a performing resume and building contacts. Also, consider that many who question the viability of double majoring are students or parents of students currently in BFA programs who have the practical perspective of what a BFA student’s week is like at their particular school and therefore question, based on that experience, whether there are simply enough hours in a day and enough days in a week to make a fully engaged commitment to their MT responsibilities if also required to commit to the upper level course requirements of an additional major.</p>
<p>vivanngo, since you are in so. cal., be sure to audition for the LA Music Center Spotlight Award. The top prize in each category is, I think $5-6000, but also the prestige for the top 2 semi-finalists of performing at the Dorothy Chandler Pavillion.</p>
<p>I agree with everything Michael wrote in #123. At some schools, it is impossible, and at others it may be very impractical, even if it can technically be done. And it depends on what the second major is…English is not like Engineering, for example. Something might have to give. For instance, being in shows can often involve a 25 hour per week committment and that would take away from time devoted to working on the other degree program. I agree with talking to those IN the programs. It isn’t truly a matter of a kid who does or doesn’t want to work hard. My kid is not a double major but her schedule is incredibly full all day, all night and all weekend. She is also a very good student. At her school, NYU, a student can double major and I think it is doable but that is not engineering…it is for Arts and Sciences. My daughter’s summers have all been immersed in theater activities. So, it may be doable to double major but one has to think through what might have to be given up to do so. Also, it depends on the school a bunch too.</p>
<p>britbrat…I think some of the posts or “advice” on this forum is being written by those who have visited schools and talked to them and also are either students in these very programs or parents of such students. I would not be quick to discount it all (though always check with the direct source). I also think a department can tell you that something is technically possible but it would help to talk to those students IN the programs. For instance, UMich told you that you can double in Engineering and a BFA in MT. Did you read what actormcfamous posted? He is now in the program and is sharing what older students and Brent Wagner himself have said about this. However, I suppose if one wants to add summer school or a fifth year of college, it could be done at that university but one should weigh how certain things about the college experience might be affected. Something might have to give.</p>
<p>To follow up a bit more on double majoring, I think part of what has to been suggested is that there are fundamental differences in structure between a BFA program and a BA program and that a BA program is much more suited to a double major than a BFA. In a typical BA program, a student can take 5 courses a semester for 15 credits which translates into roughly 15 hours of class a week. There is “headroom” in the total number of permitted credits per semester and the weekly calendar to add on additional courses to work towards a double major. Moreover, there is frequently an overlap between the core L.A. requirements for a Theater major and other majors so all you are really talking about is adding on the departmental classes needed for the second major.</p>
<p>In contrast, in most BFA programs the program is structured around taking many more courses a semester, more credits and the number of credits may not reflect the actual number of hours in class per week. For example, my daughter, as a sophomore, has 11 courses each semester this year for which she gets 16.5 credits/18 credits fall/spring semester but which require 25.5/27 hours of actual class time each week. This does not include the time required for mandated crew, which is a zero credit course, time for show rehearsals and performances, mandated time spent seeing other shows, time spent in practice rooms, let alone the substantial volume of “traditional” homework involving reading plays and other literature, doing research papers etc for text based theatre courses such as the History of Musical Theatre and for those liberal arts type courses she will be taking. Her schedule is not atypical for what a BFA student experiences at most schools and it is probable that any student with that type of schedule at any school would have to seriously compromise their commitment to their MT studies to somehow fit in classes for a second major.</p>
<p>Then take the summers. For students that intend to pursue performing as a career, most are going to perform, intern with or take studio classes at professional regional and local theatre companies not only to enhance their knowledge and experience but also to develop important connections. Accordingly, summers are generally not available for additional college classes designed to meet the requirements of a second major.</p>
<p>I think it is for reasons such as these that many posters are suggesting that anyone considering a double major think through carefully what they intend to do after college, what the second major is, and whether a BFA or BA better suits their needs.</p>
<p>I also agree that for those who feel strongly about double majoring, a BA path is more well suited and in fact, a very good option for pursuing both theater and something else. A BFA path is more well suited to those who want to devote their focus to theater with some liberal arts on the side, or to put most of their eggs in one basket. At some schools, a BFA degree may allow for a minor. If someone wants to study two fields equally, a BA path is more appropriate than a BFA one.</p>
<p>And…all that I am saying is that we did exactly what you all suggested that we do. We spoke to students at Syracuse who were in their Jr. and Sr. year, one was a BFA/Political Science double major and one was a BFA/Communications major. That was only one example. </p>
<p>I have given these first hand experiences, shared the information about speaking to the honors colleges in conjunction with the MT/BFA staff and you still seem to disregard anything that I am sharing. I have said over and over…it is not the norm, but there are exceptions to most everything. I am not responding to the people who post here that are not asking the specific questions that I have recent knowledge about. You will probably tell me that it is definately NOT possible at Penn State and there is a senior there right now completing a double major with a BFA. We had a tour guide that had a triple major at Penn State. </p>
<p>So, I truly get the suggested “normal” path, I am just saying that it is far less “impossible” than what some of you make it sound. </p>
<p>There were two different schools that said they would be DEEPLY concerned if they had a candidate that had the opinion that “the stage is their classroom”…their words, not mine.</p>
<p>And…as far as the time commitment? Some of the students posting and asking questions may have an academic/artistic week like the kids at my son’s school. They have 42 hours a week of instruction and in that are AP classes and intensive conservatory studies, so 25 hours a week sound like nothing!</p>
<p>Also, can someone tell me why it is SO bad to go to college for a 5th year to gain double. It would seem to me that 1 more year to obtain a second major or minor would make more economic sense than having to go back later and start over for a second degree. Those who want just the MT training are obviously more suited to a pure conservatory program, if they are going to do nothing but MT for the rest of their lives. Each one of the schools that we visited spoke about the need to have an education beyond just the MT and being that we visited all Liberal Arts colleges, it did not seem to be a foreign concept.</p>
<p>I would rather my s go to school for 1 or 2 more years, stretch out the academic load, have another year to do shows on the college level and then go out and use his education. </p>
<p>Maybe I am “not of the norm” either, as I absolutely see no rush to get to Broadway! At 23 or 24 years old there is plenty of opportunity to work especially as a vocalist, so I guess I just don’t get the sense of urgency and almost desperation to get there!</p>
<p>Is it being the mother of a son or am I just wierd?</p>
<p>BritBrat…I am not doubting AT ALL that some BFA students at CERTAIN colleges, double major. The questions many of us have had is about a double major between a BFA and an Engineering degree. The examples you are giving are of a BFA and a major in a liberal arts type subject area. There are students at Tisch doing that too! AlwaysAMom’s daughter did that. A double major with engineering seems nearly impossible but if you found a BFA in MT program that says you can do it, great. I doubt there are a lot of BFA in MT programs, however, where a double major with engineering will be possible. If there are some, good. </p>
<p>By the way, there are students like my own child, who value liberal arts beyond “the stage as her classroom” and so she chose a BFA program that has a considerable amount of liberal arts as she values that sort of education (Tisch values this too). So, a student who cares about that, for example, might prefer NYU, UMich, Penn State over BOCO or CMU. That still is not the same as doing a double major with engineering, however.</p>
<p>I cross posted with you. </p>
<p>I think you may be assuming that if one only majors in MT, that one can ONLY be a performer. I don’t subscribe to that point of view. I feel my daughter is getting a fine college education and degree that will equip her to be employed…either in some capacity in the arts or in something else. One need not have a second major in order to be employable. People work in all sorts of jobs that are not directly connected to their college major. Besides that, even within the arts, there are many jobs where a BFA will be an asset. I don’t feel my kid needs a back up major in order to be successful in the work world. I feel her college degree will enable her down the line in whatever she does. It has nothing to do with a rush to “get to Broadway.” Getting to Broadway is not the goal. I don’t feel a double major is necessary in order to be employable.</p>
<p>The other thing that has been said time and again is that if someone desires to focus on two areas equally, or feels a NEED to do that, that can be done very easily in a BA program and that seems an ideal way to do that in fact. </p>
<p>We ALL understand the number of hours your son puts in NOW in HS. My own kid did too…took the hardest curriculum available and did well, and then was in umpteen extracurriculars every afternoon, evening and weekend. Now, in her BFA program, she is in school all day, in rehearsals of some sort every night and weekend plus a myriad of other performing arts endeavors, and also has all the homework to do, and is also writing her own musical. She already has too much to do in the waking hours without a second major in engineering. It isn’t like she doesn’t want to work hard or more hours. You should only know what she already is carrying and doing! Some of us have kids in BFA programs who are extremely involved and so we are speaking from experience. These are highly driven and motivated kids who are not lazy and it is not a matter of not wanting more hours or more work of a second major. There are no more hours left except the few that she sleeps! She is booked and I’d venture to say, OVERbooked already.</p>
<p>Ok, so we obviously have children with very different paths and I respect everyone’s views and opinions. I was specifically speaking to the fact that you and others suggested that we go to the colleges, speak to the people about the possiblities and speak to students. We did all of the above, found out how it can be done with an MT BFA and all I get back is the same doubts.</p>
<p>So with that said. I can only tell you what we were told. I do not wish to give specific professors names or students names, but I think what is best here is for me to PM anyone who has these questions and offer the information that way as you all have better things to do than to debate with me over something that is obviously a foreign concept.</p>
<p>I would not have spent thousands of dollars and 10 days of my time to make that trip if I had not felt the need. We got the answers we were looking for and have the support of the people in the departments needed to pursue this path, so I thank you for your opinions and wish your and your daughters the best of luck :)</p>
<p>You mention meeting a triple major at PSU. I don’t doubt it. There are zillions of double or triple majors at all colleges. As well, you mention meeting BFA in MT students at Syracuse who doubled in communications or political science. I don’t doubt it. I can tell you there are plenty of BFA students at NYU/Tisch who also have double majors. Can you tell me if you met any BFA in MT students who double majored with engineering? You may have but those were not the examples you gave, yet that is the very combination that many feel would be rare or nearly impossible at MOST BFAs (even if you can find a couple programs that say it is possible…though you’ll need many BFAs on the list to increase the odds of admission and I am not sure you will find 8 or so BFA in MT programs where a double major with ENGINEERING will be possible). </p>
<p>This is a different issue than a student wanting to learn more than strictly conservatory training (I know my kid wants to study classes beyond the training/conservatory work). I hear your saying that some schools value the students learning things OTHER than theater. You betcha. UMich would tell you that. So would NYU. So would several other BFA programs. I also believe Brent Wagner told the BFA in MT students what actormcfamous mentions in his post…and that is that it would be almost impossible to double major in the usual four year program (and that likely was referring to a liberal arts second major and NOT engineering). Going a fifth year is fine if you want to pay for that, no problem. Did you speak to Brent Wagner or Laura Stosezski about the double with BFA MT and engineering at UMich? What about Cary Libken at Penn State? Just curious if those are the folks who addressed doubling with engineering. That is who I’d want to talk to at those schools. Again, if they say it is possible, that’s good. Others are posting about the reality of what it would be like…because they or their kids are in these programs and so I think those perspectives are worth weighing as well. Best of luck.</p>
<p>Britbrat, I don’t think that anyone is disregarding the first hand information you are offering. If memory serves me right, I believe the discussion about double majoring was raised on a different thread and the question was originally that of BFA MT and Engineering. There was a lot of discussion about how the special needs of those 2 programs made such a combination incompatible. The discussion then expanded to BFA MT and some other liberal arts/arts/humanities second major. I don’t think that anyone disputes that at the right school, with the right BFA program and the right second major that it can’t be done. I think what is being suggested is that even under the best amalgam of circumstances that permits a double major, the BFA/double major combination presents some very real conundrums that need to be thought through thoroughly before committing to such a course of action as opposed to a BA theatre program/double major. Even in the examples you site, are any of those students doing it in 4 years and not 5 (with the additional cost of tuition), how are the students spending their summers, what are their career aspirations upon graduation, and what impact is the MT BFA/double major time commitments having on their commitment to the MT program and ability to participate in those facets of college life that occur outside of the program. These are all issues that need to be thought through and evaluated when considering how to best structure a double major. I think that what is being suggested by some is that the flexibility and structure of a BA program is a more suitable way of doing it given that person’s particularly priorities and the “price” (both literally and figuratively) of combining a BFA with a second major. You and anyone else, obviously, are entitled to draw different conclusions but the fact that there is a difference of opinion doesn’t mean you are being disregarded. And no one is saying that “the stage is their classroom” to the exclusion of academic courses. Even at schools that traditionally were viewed as “pure conservatories” there is a growing recognition of the importance of a well rounded education within the structure of a BFA program and curricula have changed even at “conservatory” programs to include gen ed or L.A. requirements.</p>
<p>And as to time commitments, no one is minimizing the time commitments h.s. students involved in the arts have, whether in a P.A. school or academic school. Frankly, however, 42 hours a week sounds pretty typical if not a bit light. I can only judge by my daughter and her friends. In my daughter’s case, in a rigorous academic high school, 32.5 hours a week of all honors/AP academic classes, 10 hours a week of dance, voice and acting outside of her high school, 2 shows a year with attendant rehearsals and performances, home work, plus working weekends as a performer for an entertainment company. Pretty busy high school schedule requiring great discipline and time management skills. Shift to college in a BFA program, the typical day starting with classes at 8:30 and ending at 12:30 a.m. freshman year, even without show rehearsals and performances since as a freshman she was not in any shows, with 2 - 2.5 hours of each day not committed to some aspect of her MT program. 60 - 70 hour weeks not including time spent on weekends. Even with the rigor of her high school experience, she finds the demands in a college BFA program to be even greater. There is no way she could fit in the added demands of a double major without compromising the commitment to MT and the time constraints are even greater now that she is cast in a show.</p>
<p>It all boils down to making the best informed decision that meets your personal needs, objectives and priorities. From my point of view, the desire to double major with theatre/MT performance and some other major is better served by a BA program than by a BFA. But that’s just my take.</p>
<p>britbrat, I honestly and truly don’t think people on this board are attempting to be negative or naysayers in regard to the possibility/practicality of a student pursuing a double major in musical theater and engineering. I think that the people here are merely offering the advice and opinions that you yourself came onto the board and asked for. I believe they are doing just that in good faith.</p>
<p>You absolutely did the right thing in seeking out the answer to your questions about double majoring in MT and engineering from the source: the schools at which your son may be interested in pursuing such a double major. </p>
<p>It’s up to you and your son to take all of this information and advice and the varying perspectives offered on this open forum and make a decision from there. I know I speak for everyone when I say that we wish him the very best of luck and hope that, if a double major in MT and engineering is what he wants to do, he is able to make that plan a reality and that you can come back on this board and tell us about his success. </p>
<p>Re: your question about what’s wrong with doing a fifth year of college? Well, for some of us, there are several things that are undesirable in our kids’ doing a fifth year, including the tremendous cost of college tuition, especially at some of the schools you have mentioned. As far as I know, most scholarships and financial aid only extend to a kid’s four year career at college. In addition, one more year of school is yet another year that the student is not out gaining experience and working in his or her field. </p>
<p>But again, this is just one person’s point of view. Your mileage may vary, as they say! :)</p>
<p>Peace.</p>
<p>vivianngo123 - Depending on the individual school’s general education requirements your AP credits could make it much more do-able to complete two majors and graduate within 4 years. It would take careful planning from your first semester on campus. At most schools if you are a double major you have two advisers (one for each major). Once you are at school it would a be a good idea to map out your plan semester by semester and show this plan to your advisers. They will have information on what courses are offered in what semesters, and if you plan is manageable, and the amount of time it will realistically take. </p>
<p>As far as Tulane goes. It appears that their Musical Theatre program is administered through the School of Music. The BFA program is only 57 required credits, so it looks as if there would be room in a students schedule to take additional theatre classes (since the required courses are very music oriented), and most likely to double major (assuming that Tulane will allow students to do so… as people have mentioned it is a good idea to contact the various departments directly to find out if it is recommended and to see if you can talk to students who are currently pursuing double majors). </p>
<p>I was curious, about the courses and policies, so I looked at the online catalog… it appears that the acting class that is required for the Musical Theatre students is different than the acting classes for the Theatre students, so you may want to contact the departments to find out how possible it is for students in one department to take additional classes in the other. </p>
<p>Theatre & Dance – [Tulane</a> Department of Theatre and Dance](<a href=“http://www.tulane.edu/~theatre/home.html]Tulane”>http://www.tulane.edu/~theatre/home.html)</p>
<p>Music – [Newcomb</a> Department of Music](<a href=“http://www.tulane.edu/~music/programs/bfamustheatre.htm]Newcomb”>http://www.tulane.edu/~music/programs/bfamustheatre.htm)</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.tulane.edu/~ntuc/catalog_pages/catalog.pdf[/url]”>http://www.tulane.edu/~ntuc/catalog_pages/catalog.pdf</a></p>
<p>It also appears that it is possible v(in fact it looks like it may be mandatory at least in Theatre) to audition for the Musical Theatre BFA (or the BFA in Acting) after you have been on campus for a year taking foundation courses. </p>
<p>On a side note, it appears that Tulane also offers an MFA in Musical Theatre. The MFA looks to be somewhat self designed depending on the students interest in directing, performance, or choreography.</p>
<p>By the way, one school you visited is Stanford. That is a BA school where I am sure your son can double major. I am sure at UMich he could double with a liberal arts subject. Again, nobody is doubting the double major of a BFA in MT with a liberal arts major at certain universities (though it is not possible at certain BFA schools). The biggy is the combo of BFA in MT with an Engineering degree. I haven’t seen you mention students you met who had that specific combo which is very very different than a combo of BFA in MT with a liberal arts subject. </p>
<p>Further, another school you visited is Elon. Elon doesn’t offer Engineering to my knowledge. So, of course they said you could double major with a liberal arts subject. Again, that is not the same. The Syracuse examples you gave are also of a double major in BFA MT with a liberal arts subject. The question is how many department heads of BFA in MT programs said you could combine that with engineering and also how many students did you meet or get contacts of who have that exact combination? That is the thing several of us are wondering about and not simply double majoring (which IS possible at many schools but not all). IF this is possible, that is GREAT. Can you give us examples of where? Nobody is trying to doubt it but are raising legitimate questions and sharing experiences.</p>
<p>Thanks all! I do hope to be coming back and telling you of a success story..only time will tell. I truly believe that educators are starting to change their opinions about some career paths and that is why they are encouraging a well rounded liberal arts education. </p>
<p>The colleges that we visited were SO thrilled with a student that was willing to “think outside the box” as far as a plan to do such a path.</p>
<p>For example, one professor at a LAC that has a 3-2 engineering program (where you do your 3 years of pre-engineering at that school and then transfer to Penn State or Columbia to finish) said, “I would treat you like one of my athletes by stretching out your pre-engineering over the 4 years that you are doing your BFA, and then send you off to Columbia where you could complete your engineering degree with MT BFA in hand and start auditioning”</p>
<p>Those are the kinds of answers that we received. My point and yours…keep asking the questions…keep exploring the possibilities…don’t give up until you find a “fit”.</p>
<p>Thanks again and I hope to be reporting back next Spring :)</p>