Presidential Race

[mathmom]

<p>Gee if all the Iraqi War veterans are for the war, how’d they form a group like this? <a href=“Search | Iraq Veterans Against the War”>Iraq Veterans Against the War | You are not alone;

[citygirlsmom]

<p>mathmom, don’t confuse them with reality…you know the half glass full kind of guys</p>

<p>yep, these guys who have done such a stellar job, who have made a fiasco of the war, which was over, what two years ago, are to be trusted because there is a CHANCE they might it right NOW</p>

<p>and who here is signing up for the surge, HH is for sure because he/she knows it will work and FF is sending his kids…no wait…oppsy</p>

<p>I ask this once again because of i tired of all the pro=war this is going great we can win this with absolutely no commitment or follow through of the supporters here</p>

[drb]

<p>

So I’m taking my cue from them for the time being. Not from Jane and not from Susan and Tim. Okay? As are millions of other Americans - average Joes who just are not as educated about the subject as you are, and yet (so sadly to the high iq types like you and others here) are allowed in this country to have an opinion on the subject.

What about the many MORE millions of Americans that want us OUT. Why is their (our) opinion irrelevant?</p>

[hereshoping]

<p>Who said it was? I am not trying to change anyone’s mind. I’m just trying to defend the “other side”–against comments like

…don’t confuse them with reality…

</p>

<p>…or the fact that some posters insist we can’t support some vets’ views because our kids are not over there. Fabulous logic. </p>

<p>I don’t remember saying that all vets/soldiers are for the war. But if one were only to read this thread, one would quickly come to the conclusion there was just ONE CORRECT view–no others have any legitimacy or merit at all.</p>

[Hindoo]

<p>Interesting article by a conservative Republican.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/24/AR2006112401104.html[/url]”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/24/AR2006112401104.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[VoxDei]

<p>H</p>

<p>Your embracing Hagel is kind of like the way that those on the Right embraced Lieberman. What we won’t do to find those who agree with us!!</p>

[interesteddad]

<p>Hagel, Warner, and Collins are three of the Republican Senators up for re-election in 2008. Probably not a coincidence that they are vocal in their disagreement with the President’s policy in Iraq. The American voting public has had it with the Bush policy. That was quite evident last November.</p>

[Hindoo]

<p>VoxDel–No, you missed my point entirely. I’m not in love with Hagel, who is generally far too conservative for me. But even he has the brains to see that things are going from bad to worse to godawful in Iraq, and the courage to say something about it.</p>

[VoxDei]

<p>Sorry, I didn’t think that you made a point other than saying that it was an interesting article. You obviously cited it because it was written by someone “who is generally far too conservative for me.” Otherwise why mention it. You did what those who have attached themselves to Lieberman have done.</p>

[conyat]

<p>

I didn’t think that you made a point other than saying that it was an interesting article.

</p>

<p>And yet you jumped from that to “embracing.” </p>

<p>

You obviously cited it because it was written by someone “who is generally far too conservative for me.” Otherwise why mention it.

</p>

<p>It’s actually kind of standard to make that sort of disclaimer when posting from an unexpected source. It would be more surprising if someone posted an article by the opposite party without a “set up.”</p>

<p>But very nice job of distracting attention away from the posted article and onto the person who posted it. Excellent example of that technique.</p>

[Hindoo]

<p>VoxDei–Don’t say you’re sorry when you know you’re not. All I did was post an interesting article, nothing that should have provoked a smart-alec attack. It was a well-written piece by a conservative political figure, whose brain, heart, and conscience have led him to oppose the Iraq occupation and to speak out against the hellish mess the Bushies have made of it. I actually find it comforting that not all conservatives are knee-jerk war-mongering fanatics. OK, now come back at me with a mean-spirited retort. I fully expect one and won’t be happy until I get it.</p>

[interesteddad]

<p>War brewing between Levin/McCain and Condoleeza Rice:</p>

<p><a href=“http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=268192[/url]”>http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=268192&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>How do you guys read Sec. Rice? Is she arrogant? Or incompetent? Her disdain for the Senate is really incomprehensible.</p>

[fundingfather]

<p>

Wow. Interesting stuff with Baker and Hamilton’s appearance before the Senate Foreign Relations committtee today. Particularly the conversation between Chuck Hagel and Jim Baker on opportunities for diplomacy in the region.

</p>

<p>Wouldn’t a fair reporting of Baker’s testimony also include the fact that he says we should give the surge a chance?</p>

[Allmusic]

<p>What’s a “surge” going to do against this?</p>

<p>

US officials this week expressed concern about the explosion of splinter groups in Iraq, noting that their sheer number makes a political resolution to the ongoing violence in Iraq increasingly difficult. One Defense Department official said in an interview yesterday that the military is tracking at least 28 militias, many of them Shi’ite splinter groups, but knows little about their leadership or command structure.

</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2007/01/31/us_militias_on_rise_in_iraq/[/url]”>http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2007/01/31/us_militias_on_rise_in_iraq/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[fundingfather]

<p>

War brewing between Levin/McCain and Condoleeza Rice:</p>

<p>How do you guys read Sec. Rice? Is she arrogant? Or incompetent? Her disdain for the Senate is really incomprehensible.

</p>

<p>What specifically did Rice say in her letter that was so disdainful? You don’t really expect her to put in writing the exact nature of any sort of diplomacy that she has been conducting with Maliki do you? I would say that the disdain that is being exhibited is that of Levin - he has proven by the fact that he puts letters received from Rice on his web site, along with his spin of them that he is not looking to partner with Sec. of State in finding a solution but rather is just out to score political points.</p>

[fundingfather]

<p>AM, your post of the Boston Globe article is consistent with the views of Sec Rice and contradicts the views of the Dems that the near-term solution to the problem should be a political one.

US officials this week expressed concern about the explosion of splinter groups in Iraq, noting that their sheer number makes a political resolution to the ongoing violence in Iraq increasingly difficult.

</p>

<p>Rice:

On your point about a political solution being critical to long-term success, I
also agree. However, with violence in the capital at the levels we have seen since
the Samarra attack on February 22, 2006, extremists and terrorists have been able
to hold the political process hostage. The President’s strategy is designed to
dampen the present level of violence in Baghdad and ensure that Iraq’s political
center has the security and stability it needs to negotiate lasting political
accommodations through Iraq’s new democratic institutions.

</p>

[Allmusic]

<p>FF, the point is that there are so many factions, so much sectarian violence in this ever devastating civil war, that NO 12,500 American troops, sent to be sacrificed for Bush’s ego, is going to make a dent in the current violence.</p>

<p>Those who oppose Bush’s troop surge are from both sides of the political aisle. In fact, Bush’s own generals, members of his own party, etc. are increasingly voicing LACK of support for the surge and Bush’s entire foreign policy “strategy”…</p>

<p>

Paul Pillar , who served as the CIA’s chief intelligence analyst for the Middle East before leaving in 2005 for a teaching position, said the number of groups continues to expand almost daily. </p>

<p>“It is very difficult to get a handle on all of the contours of the current situation in Iraq,” he said. “This is a civil war on top of an insurgency on top of other conflicts. There is no one simple split between side A and side B. There are numerous subgroups and splinter groups that make it difficult to say any one leader is in charge of those who come under one label.”

</p>

<p>and then this:</p>

<p>

The Shi’ite splinter groups illustrate the extent to which the US enemies in Iraq have multiplied, from Sunni insurgents who were the prime focus of the war in 2003 and 2004 to the Shi’ite militias affiliated with powerful political parties that emerged in late 2005 and 2006 to today’s obscure religious militias such as the Soldiers of Heaven, which was so heavily armed that it was able to down a US helicopter.

</p>

<p>It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize that sending more troops into that hornet’s nest is not going to quell the increasting unrest.</p>

[Hanna]

<p>“Is she arrogant? Or incompetent?”</p>

<p>I don’t know. I think that she decided a long time ago to stick with the president no matter what, and she’ll do what it takes to stand by that commitment. Whether she’s conscious of her better judgment is anyone’s guess. Her slip last year – saying that the administration has made “hundreds of mistakes” in Iraq – suggests to me that she’s aware at some level that Bush isn’t always right, but she clearly doesn’t tell him that. I think her unwillingness to confront him with his mistakes makes it irrelevant whether she knows better or not.</p>

<p>I’ll watch the hour-long video interview if I get the chance; I can’t do that at work, and my hi-speed isn’t working at home. I do think that it’s reasonable to expect the PRESIDENT – or at least Tony Snow – to be able to explain his rationale when he asks me to pay for more troops and sit through more funerals. I am actually listening and paying attention, and I’m not stupid, and I haven’t heard them begin to explain what’s different about the “surge.” Barring that, a quick explanation from surge supporters is not a lot to ask.</p>

<p>“sending more troops into that hornet’s nest is not going to quell the increasting unrest.”</p>

<p>Well, a million more troops might. But not 20,000 more. I’d actually be more amenable to arguments that we ought to send a million.</p>

[VoxDei]

<p>H</p>

<p>You never made any point when you cited the article - just that it was interesting. Then, when I responded, you commented that I missed your point completely when you never made any point to begin with. Then you tell me that I’m the smart-alec. Your logic doesn’t make any sense to me and I think your mean spiritedness is unbecoming to you.</p>

[sjmom2329]

<p>

@hanna

I don’t know. I think that she decided a long time ago to stick with the president no matter what, and she’ll do what it takes to stand by that commitment. Whether she’s conscious of her better judgment is anyone’s guess. Her slip last year – saying that the administration has made “hundreds of mistakes” in Iraq – suggests to me that she’s aware at some level that Bush isn’t always right, but she clearly doesn’t tell him that. I think her unwillingness to confront him with his mistakes makes it irrelevant whether she knows better or not.

Built into your comments is the assumption that Bush has to be wrong. Maybe Rice just actually believes in Bush’s goals, and trusts his judgement. I realize that that’s a preposterous idea to you – you seem more comfortable with the notion that she’s either duplicitous or stupid. Of course, there have been mistakes in Iraq, just as there have been in every war! Entire books have been written about the mistakes in previous wars. That fact doesn’t mean that this war does not have a purpose or that withdrawal is the only option. Just what do those who support troop withdrawal think will happen if the US leaves? </p>

<p>Allmusic, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize that the necessary level of resources can achieve victory in any conflict. Don’t we teach our kids that they can reach any goal if they work hard enough? </p>

<p>I just find it appalling that so many are openly hoping for defeat in Iraq – the only reason that I can see for this perspective is the hope that such a loss will ensure a Democratic president in 2008.</p>