And the stats on self-medication by physicians (they have easy access to narcotics, even with tight restrictions) suggest it’s not just lawyers.
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At what point do you think the right prescription becomes clear to the individual? This thread is about rigor at Princeton undergrad.
It sounds like as an older person, it all seems clear to you. So clear that you offer lectures to others about it. In undergraduate students’ shoes, I wonder if it’s so obvious. No one at Goldman is going to trust a summer college intern with any project of significance, no one at Davis is going to have a college student do much of anything, and at MGH, college kids are today’s candy stripers. Even in law school, summer interning is more about lunching at Per Se than pulling all nighters and showering at Skadden. I completely agree that there are a lot of well-educated, prestigiously employed and miserable lawyers. But, it usually took a couple years of doing the job to figure that out. And some decide that they want to stick with it. Some don’t. Good time to decide at that point.
Another false correlation is between achievement / rigor and sadness. The most depressed people are those who know what they want and are unable to achieve it.
Doctor’s don’t leave medicine (or take drugs) because they suddenly feel they lost their calling. They leave because of electronic health records, loss of autonomy, powerlessness over social influences on their patients’ health. All factors we can assume your average Princeton pre-med would know a lot about balancing against the boon of being in a profession where a person can genuinely help others?
You will find “gunners” at every university, some overt and some “stealth”. The fact is kids that apply and get into elite colleges are competitive by nature. Too many people still have the misperception that these colleges are filled with the scions of the aristocratic class that rely and fall back on “mom and dad”. That is not the typical student. They are all driven to succeed (however they define it) and see their college experience as an important tool.
I do think there is a spectrum between those who view college as an opportunity to collect “credentials” and those who view it as an opportunity to improve their knowledge, skills and understanding. People who are focused on “credentials” tend to be the ones who are concerned about rigor (or is it grades?). Practically speaking though, even if your prime motivation is seeking knowledge, you do need to keep an eye on credentials because that is what will be on your resume, whether for a job or grad/professional school.
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I don’t think most people are looking for the relevant data or seeking it out along the way. As you point out, most kids, whether 18 or 21, will not know the right career choice for them or, as you also point out, much about the differences will be between being a law partner or an i-banker or a neurosurgeon.
What they should be trying to learn is what their strengths are and get a sense of what will feel authentic to them. I am a big proponent for learning form experience. Sometimes, that will not be at the most prestigious summer internship. For the most part, people are framing the choice as you seem to be doing, where the objective is to get the most prestigious school/job and then later figure out what you want to do (although for most kids, I don’t think they even have the latter part of the plan). I think there is data to be gathered along the way and people are not looking.
I have the sense that you keep incorrectly putting words in my mouth. Not sure. I don’t think I was ever arguing that there was a correlation between achievement/rigor and sadness, nor did I make that statement. I love rigor and achievement. I do think the meaningful proportion of mental health issues at big law firms comes in part from people blindly chasing the gold ring without a lot of self-reflection and discovering that winning the prize won’t be fulfilling to them. Many years ago, I read a brilliant book by Martin Seligman entitled Helplessness, that argued that most depression is caused by people’s perceptions (often false) that no actions they can take will enable them to realize the benefits they’d like to get. In some cases, it could be the perception that “No matter what I do, no girls want to go out with me.” In others, it is “I’m working like crazy doing everything I can , but I’m not happy at work.” In the latter case, it could be a lawyer who is not that successful and having trouble in his/her career or it could be someone who is very successful but does not get fulfillment from the work but does not see a feasible path to a career where he or she likes what they are going to do when they get up each day.
I fear we are getting off topic for a thread about rigor at Princeton.
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I think one of the issues with the intense pre-professionalism kids are exhibiting these days (and yes, college is expensive, parents want ROI, I get it…) is that it lays out the “what will bring me joy or at least satisfaction” in VERY gross terms.
Could I have predicted that I’d love my work for large, global corporations when I was in college? Absolutely not. Am I a “corporate type”? No I am not. But my work over the last several decades has primarily been as a problem-solver/puzzle fixer and facilitator. I like mystery novels, I am an extreme extrovert, I love to read, I love to talk.
That doesn’t fit any neat boxes that an 18 year old or even a 22 year old can parse. The notion that we’re all sending our kids off to become an X… well, if your kid knows what X is then great. But everyone else? I don’t like blood so med school is out… is that really what it comes down to? Friend of mine is a psychiatrist with a relatively narrow focus in both patient care, research, teaching fellows, etc. Don’t think there has been a smidgen of blood near her in over 30 years.
Another friend (more like a friendly acquaintance) is a forensic accountant. Virtually NOTHING he does is remotely similar to what kids think of as accounting. He is a financial bloodhound-- kind of a Sherlock Holmes chasing oligarchs who have evaded sanctions and are arming terrorists, tracing large purchases of houses, high end cars and artwork back to the deposed rulers who have stolen from their countries treasuries, etc. I laugh when I suggest to young people “have you thought about forensic accounting?” and they tell me no, they don’t want a “desk job”. The guy hasn’t sat down in years!
I get called an elitist a lot for thinking that history, political science, anthropology, literature, etc. all make fine majors. Somehow majoring in sports management is a more leverageable degree. But there are hundreds of careers for which connecting the dots is the 'secret sauce"-- and a history degree, for example- teaches someone to connect the dots.
I “use” what I learned in the “Tragedy and Comedy” course I took as an undergrad far more than ANY of the so called practical courses I ended up taking in business school. If you’ve studied King Lear or Othello or Macbeth, you are probably going to relate to your CEO and Board in a more sophisticated way than yet another “Valuation” course is going to teach you!
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Going to law school (prestigious or otherwise) can also close doors, if the burden of law school student loan debt requires the person to maximize income and eliminate choices that would have a comfortable income if they did not have the debt.
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My misunderstanding, but when people emphasize how unhappy rigorous, high achieving people are, saying " [Mental health issues are significant for those at prestigious law firms] and I believe suicide rates are pretty high" or others’ emphasizing that many doctors are also depressed, that might appear to draw something of a connection between striving for these positions and sadness.
I don’t think we’ll agree that life is simply about finding what you’re good at and then acting on that. Lots of people are good at a lot of things, and no one knows what they’re really good at without winnowing that through a serious investment of effort and time - so not all avenues can realistically be explored anyway. Even in that, you need to make some up-front choices.
And I’m not even sure what “authentic” feels like in terms of a job. If I sat around a dinner with a group of friends, alumni or neighbors and asked if they felt their lives or jobs were or felt authentic, I’m pretty sure they’d ask me to pass the THC edible. I’m really not sure how distressed debt, fixed income or global markets let alone urology can really feel authentic. But perhaps I’m too numb. To me, “authenticity” is the kind of stuff that plays at the HBS course on “How to be Happy” but pretty much fades about 30 minutes after the lecture as everyone gets back to paying their mortgages, coaching little league and playing the occasional game of tennis or poker.
Most of the people I know who did a lot of self awareness searching to find their personal attributes and authenticity had very large trust funds waiting for them after they got done dealing blackjack at the Indian casino. The others pretty much look for jobs where they are well compensated, have some occasional feelings of fulfillment, can tolerate, and can live life outside of work. Many jobs can do this, but holding a very marketable professional degree can be a bit of a shortcut to this life.
You talk a lot about prestige. I don’t think all of these brilliant undergrads are chasing prestige like lemmings off a cliff where the sadness and suicide of corporate law awaits. They are smart enough to know that a prestigious line on their resume could make their life easier and less stressful. Prestige only matters as to how it is valued by others. So the talk about how prestige shouldn’t matter really should go out to everyone else before it goes out to those pursuing it.
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I keep waiting for my own “Martin Seligman Life” to start, but so far it hasn’t. Especially the part where even though I’m ugly and old, my gorgeous young grad student from the UK falls in love with me, and offers to have 5 more children with me and abandons his brilliant career to stay home with them and homeschool. (I mean I have 2 kids already with the first spouse but I’m growing bored, bored, bored. Who can expect a woman like me to stay faithful when I’m so bored?)
But probably it hasn’t happened because I have an attitude of helplessness about it? I mean maybe I just need to be more positive…
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I don’t believe that “most people” have large (or even minimal) trust funds waiting for them. The majority of people who love their work prioritized things they already knew about themselves and then were able to steer the ship while also earning a paycheck.
There is abundant research on incentives for example. If your manager is going to reward you based on your monthly sales, you’re going to knock the cover off the ball selling. Will they be profitable sales? you don’t care. Will they be to customers which meet your company’s criteria for “these are the kind of clients we want to do business with” objectives? Likely not. Your goal is to sell by golly.
And my observation is that people who set the goal of “I’m going to make a lot of money” do- in fact- meet that goal. It may be the wrong goal, it may make themselves miserable or make a happy marriage impossible, it may mean risking any semblance of civic engagement or volunteering or other things that make people happy- but they’ll get there. Set the goal. Achieve the goal.
It is actually not that hard to figure out your own version of authenticity. It’s only hard if you ALSO need to make a million dollars per year by the time you are 30. Then it gets hard.
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Frankly “prioritizing what they already knew about themselves and… steering the ship” sounds very first world problem. I mean I guess I could imagine a bus driver saying “man… I steer this wheel like a stud” or a janitor saying “man… I love making things shine”, but actually? So maybe the trust funds are larger than you think.
Are you being serious?
The vast majority of working people in America do not have family wealth waiting for them. Read the statistics on the number of people in their 60’s who will retire with social security and “a little extra”.
I’m going to assume you know very few people who work in occupations you consider non-prestigious. And I’m going to guess that their lives are nothing like what you think they are.
Believe it or not, people work as speech therapists, librarians, social workers, pastors, music teachers and yes, bus drivers and custodians-- and many of them derive a lot of satisfaction and meaning out of that work.
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Okay, so I know many many many professional musicians, and although the music is great, the choice between the politics of performance or the drudgery of giving lessons is tough, and most if not all do not recommend that career.
And I know lots of therapists, physical, speech, occupational. And yes, they have similar fulfillment as many doctors, but they also have the same stresses of EMR, bulk patient overload and overbearing corporatization of medicine.
One of our best friends is a pastor. There are certainly ups and downs to that job. Being in a position where everyone thinks they have to have an opinion about you can’t be fun. But he is a great guy, and there are aspects of his job he loves. He certainly is a great representative of his Church.
But you’ve listed a bunch of professional jobs. I am talking blue collar. And there, your journey of self-realization really gets a bit thin doesn’t it? I think it’s a bit patronizing to think that our office cleaning staff is embarking on a journey of self-realization every night, and I think it’s patronizing to think my assistant really enjoys making a lot of the phone calls that I delegate to her. Seeing her as a human being, I see someone who is striving to get more degrees to get promotions and lock in health benefits as a single mom of 2. I’m not going to ask her whether she feels if taking my messages feels “authentic”.
You seem to be moving the goalposts quite a bit by now.
We are worried that Princeton students who don’t end up working at a hedge fund are going to have to support themselves by cleaning offices and becoming administrative assistants???
I’ll repeat- you clearly do NOT know a lot of people (your pastor excluded) who do not have “highly prestigious” jobs. Whether blue collar, white collar, or otherwise. Because if you do, your posts are increasingly patronizing if not downright insulting.
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You should ask your garbage collection crew whether they feel that their jobs have fulfilled their life’s journey of actualization and let them tell you who’s being patronizing
Take the back and forth to PM and please lets get back on topic.
I have a family member who IS part of a sanitation crew (their preferred term for their work btw…). He is a member (and a leader) of his union; he has taken courses (paid for by his employer) on sustainable solutions to solid waste in dense municipalities; he is now obtaining certification on hazardous waste and intends to teach at a local university which has a Master’s program in Public Safety.
His “journey” has been quite satisfying but thanks for assuming.
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Relative few people receive inheritances, according to Inheritances by Age and Income Group — Penn Wharton Budget Model . Most inheritances are not in the range of what you might think of as trust fund levels of money, so the subset of people who have parents with enough money to set up a worthwhile trust fund for them is much smaller. Granted it may be larger for Princeton or Yale students than the overall population, but is it really a majority of the population even there?
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To bring this back onto the topic, very few choices in the real world are the result of a navel-examining journey of self-awareness that results in the perfect job choice that aligns with a constellation of physical, personal, intellectual and emotional attributes to create an authentic symbiosis. And not all unhappy lawyers, doctors or bankers would have been happy if only they had gone through truly followed their bliss.
We’ve gotten off on a lot of tangents like talking about how someone can choose sanitation as a vocation and how many people inherit fortunes.
To get back on topic, Princeton undergrads are selected to be an energetic and competitive group unless you believe most Princetonians are just so moved by their own incredible talents that the work just came naturally. In every subject in High School. And on the SAT.
My simple opinion is that it’s just not nice to wag our beards at these kids’ choices (or at unhappy corporate lawyers) or judge these kids’ efforts to position themselves so they can enjoy more opportunities in life, using some of the same skills and strategies that got them the opportunity to go to Princeton in the first place. Of course there are lifelong friends to be made, kegs to be enjoyed, but this is a thread about why it’s supposedly bad for Princeton to stress academic rigor.
I’m guessing that Princeton feels the same way as Yale whose administration gently reminded alums recently that, “please remember that we are still, first and foremost, a School”. I’m not a Yalie, but I imagine that having enough rigor to stimulate, engage and differentiate students at Princeton requires rigor.
I hope that people realize that I was being sarcastic here:
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Of course, some were selected based on their parents’ achievements (legacy and development) while have plausibly top-end academic credentials within the relatively low ceilings of US high school courses/grades and standardized tests (while unhooked applicants find that necessary, but nowhere near sufficient, to get admitted).
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