"Pro-fat"/"Pro-obesity"--anyone else heard of this?

Parent Cafe
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<p>the “fructose” in HFCS is not the same as in apple juice (though I would hope that users of that would understand that it also has high sugar levels.)</p>

<p><a href=“http://pubcit.typepad.com/clpblog/2007/01/cspis_litigatio.html[/url]”>http://pubcit.typepad.com/clpblog/2007/01/cspis_litigatio.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Of course, there are many other items in the mainstream American diet that are deleterious for good health. The wreckage of good bread is huge. Our larger disagreement is your insistence that it’s a purely personal issue, not societal (which is unusual for you, as you represent yourself on CC, anyway).</p>

<p>Recently, gov officials in NJ are going after foods sold in farmer’s markets because they are not produced under “government oversight.” So, let’s make sure people shop in gigant-markets who import food from around the world, with no oversight at all, plus all the environmental and economic costs, but not trust people to judge the quality of the locally grown, healthy, less refined food produced by their neighbors.</p>

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<p>As a life science professional trained in one of the most renowned obesity research labs in the world, I’d like to clarify some common misconceptions. I have no time for a long post, but in several sentences:</p>

<ul>
<li> Ability to store energy in the form of fat has been preserved during evolution as a mean for survival. Therefore, it’s extremely difficult to suppress this fundamental and extremely complex biological mechanism</li>
<li> obesity is a medical condition resulting from a combination of genetic and environmental factors (just like most diseases)</li>
<li> nobody knows precise reasons for epidemic growth of obesity in the modern society</li>
<li> metabolic rates are different for different people. Sometimes it can be adjusted through diet / exercise, but it’s extremely difficult to induce permanent changes</li>
<li> for many people, weight loss is not a matter of willpower. Controlling food intake for obese people is about as easy as holding their breath – upon time the urge to eat will become similar to the urge to inhale. </li>
<li> It is possible to loose weight by controlling the environment. However, it is extremely difficult to make educated choices and select efficient healthy diet / exercise regimen. The best chance of success would require professional advice and professional supervision. Yet, it’s extremely difficult to maintain weight loss.</li>
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<p>For those who are interested, here is an easy-to-read review article from one of the most reputable source:</p>

<p>Modern science versus the stigma of obesity
<a href=“http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v10/n6/full/nm0604-563.html[/url]”>http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v10/n6/full/nm0604-563.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>From the above referenced article:</p>

<p>“All of the above indicates that morbid obesity is not a personal choice but a disease. Like those with hypertension, which increases the risk of strokes or heart attacks, morbidly obese individuals are at one extreme of the distribution for a continuous trait (adiposity) and are at an increased risk for numerous conditions that shorten life, including diabetes, heart disease, hypertension and cancer14,15”</p>

<p>"These clinical findings suggest that directly increasing energy expenditure is an alternative strategy for inducing weight loss. This premise has already been tested in humans using dinitrophenol, which uncouples mitochondrial respiration. This agent successfully induces weight loss in humans but has unacceptably high toxicity68. Thyroid hormone also reduced weight by increasing energy expenditure, but was again toxic68. The development of selective thyroid hormone agonists that increase energy expenditure with no side effects could provide clinical benefit in a manner analogous to the use of selective estrogen receptor modulators as an alternative estrogen…</p>

<p>Although population-based measures to reduce weight are intrinsically difficult to implement, they will need to be an important element of any strategy for dealing with the public health consequences of obesity. In this regard, modest weight loss (5−10 pounds) confers a significant health benefit and is achievable with changes in lifestyle, such as modest restriction of food intake and increased exercise78. However, such measures are not generally effective for the long-term maintenance of significant weight loss, especially in morbidly obese individuals10. For these people, help will come with the identification of the genes that predispose to obesity, a fuller understanding of their function and a deeper knowledge of how their activity is modulated by environmental, developmental, emotional and psychological factors. This level of understanding will provide the foundation for the development of effective therapies. Such therapies will undoubtedly have to include drugs or, as aptly put by J. Flier, the medical community would effectively “abandon a major segment of the population to an unhealthy fate"7.”</p>

<p>Response: The above article points out 2 interesting concepts. One is that increasing energy expenditure leads to decreased weight. He states that this will take drugs for major weight loss in obese patients. I am not sure what he proposes to do about diet and exercise, as he seems more concerned about the molecular and enzymatic level, thus the push for drugs (which of couse can have side-effects, such as fen-fen.)</p>

<p>He also clearly states that obesity is unhealthy, a concept that the pro-obesity lobby wants to dispel in their “fat is beautiful” campaign. (see original website referenced in this thread that is designed for overweight/fat people to accept their fate.)</p>

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<p>^^^</p>

<p>Let me try explaining this article in more simple terms. Food intake and energy expenditure constitute metabolic equilibrium predetermined by certain biological “setpoint” for each individual. This precise regulation allows to maintain body weight within a relatively narrow range. Metabolic equilibrium is mediated by molecules such as hormones or neurotransmitters mediating signaling (communication) between cells. These metabolic pathways are disrupted or disregulated in obese people. </p>

<p>Environmental changes aimed at inducing negative metabolic balance, such as dieting (reduced food intake) or exercise (increased energy expenditure), can only disrupt metabolic equilibrium to a very small extent within this narrow predefined body weight range (hence modest weight loss of 5-10 pounds). Further distortion of this equilibrium would induce potent compensatory biological responses (negative feedback loop) via increased production of “hunger” hormones and/or decreased level of satiety factors, which would promote compensatory increase of food intake until the original equilibrium is restored. This drive to eat can not be controlled by willpower just like a drive to breath.</p>

<p>Thus, environmental (lifestyle) changes can not cure morbid obesity. Gene therapy tools for changing genetic makeup of obese people do not exist yet (although this can be successfully accomplished in mice). So, at the present time, the only promise of curing obesity would be to develop drugs restoring metabolic balance by promoting or disrupting certain molecular interactions in the brain. Other classes of drugs affect food absorption and processing in the digestive system. </p>

<p>And of course severe obesity is unhealthy, hence the term “morbid obesity” and multiple attempts at drug development. Finally, a few words regarding side effects. Obesity drug development is one of the most challenging endeavors of modern biotechnology. Considering the fact that metabolic processes are tightly linked to just about any other physiological process in our body including reproductive, neuro-endocrine and cardiovascular functions, it is virtually impossible to invent a compound that would specifically interact with metabolic pathways, yet would not trigger any changes in other interconnected signaling networks. Nevertheless, investigating the mechanisms of metabolic regulation is absolutely imperative for identifying molecular targets of obesity drugs.</p>

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<p>All that is fine and dandy, but given situations of lessened food availability EVERYONE loses weight (Did you ever see an obese corpse in Biafra?)</p>

<p>There may be in rare cases, people who simply cannot lose weight, but by and large, people being overweight in this country is caused by eating too much and exercising too little, in fact exercising never.</p>

<p>Many people are consuming meals that are 1000 to 2000 calories or more 3 times a day. Before starting all of these people on potentially dangerous diet drugs, let’s at least cut this by 1/3 to 1/2 and see what happens.</p>

<p>(“The chicken Caesar salad at Chili’s is one of those items that might appear to be a healthier choice, but brace yourself: it contains 1,010 calories and 76 grams of fat, while the sirloin has 540 calories and 42 grams of fat (not counting side dishes).” </p>

<p>This is just unacceptable Think of how much we could lower the cost of illnesses due to obesity and drugs used for obesity if people just cut the calories and food intake and just got up and exercised.</p>

<p>It’s much easier to make excuses because the food tastes so good or it’s too hard to get out and exercise, but that is what it will take for most folks.</p>

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<p>It is quite apparent that if you starve or limit food intake of any person, he/she would loose weight. However, morbidly obese people cannot sustain VOLUNTARY reduction of food intake. If food is not available, they have no choice but to loose weight, however if food is freely available, they have no choice either… Hence, I mentioned professional help / supervision.</p>

<p>Per my original message, it is absolutely possible to loose weight through diet / exercise, but it is much more difficult to achieve a sustained weight loss. How many SEVERELY obese people you know were able to maintain their weight loss over long time period? Ever heard of yo-yo dieting? </p>

<p>Healthy lifestyle choices are very important for people with NORMAL metabolic regulation, especially as they get older. Here is a simple math: basic metabolic rate / muscle mass (contributing to energy expenditure) decline upon age. So, in order to maintain metabolic balance, it is necessary to compensate by either increasing energy expenditure via exercise, or decrease food intake via dieting. Without exercise or diet most lean individuals will eventually become obese. Similarly, increasing food intake without changing energy expenditure would eventually lead to obesity of any individual with normal metabolic balance regardless of age.</p>

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<p>[Just</a> a heads up.](<a href=“http://www.wsu.edu:8001/~brians/errors/lose.html]Just”>http://www.wsu.edu:8001/~brians/errors/lose.html)</p>

<p>I don’t know why I can’t resist. Sue me.</p>

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<p>A rule of thumb I have heard more than once, is that whatever exercise you were doing at age 20 to maintain your weight, you need to double at age 40 to get the same result. Your research seems to support this.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, people tend to exercise less and eat more as they age, which is exactly the opposite of what is needed to maintain healthy weight.</p>

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<p>“It is quite apparent that if you starve or limit food intake of any person, he/she would loose weight. However, morbidly obese people cannot sustain VOLUNTARY reduction of food intake. If food is not available, they have no choice but to loose weight, however if food is freely available, they have no choice either… Hence, I mentioned professional help / supervision.”</p>

<p>Many of the morbidly obese food are fed high-fat, enormous diets by others, who assist them in gaining and keeping weight. They get breakfasts of a dozen eggs, bacon, etc etc. Many can’t even get up to get their own meals and other people bring them this food. This should be stopped, but it happens often. Same with obese children, whose caretakers feed them enormous amounts of high-caloric foods.</p>

<p>Many of the people posting here and on the pro-fat/obesity lobby website are stating that those who are overweight or obese cannot lose weight even by lowering food intake and exercising vigorously every day. This is highly questionable when one sees that the same people, of the same species, starve when not fed. </p>

<p>Over time, if metabolism slows, then eat less and exercise more. Even many older and elderly people can get up and walk, esp if they build up endurance.</p>

<p>There are way too many excuses that people use to keep being overweight or obese.</p>

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<p>“I don’t know why I can’t resist. Sue me.”</p>

<p>I resisted. I think we knew what s/he meant!</p>

<p>Anyway, maybe the concept of “loosing” weight from one’s body is poetic.</p>

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<p>This reminds me of another adage (or perhaps “teen folklore?”) I learned as a kid 35 years ago. Girls used to warn against getting fat because “once you create fat cells in your body, they never go away. They can deflate if you diet, but they will reinflate very easily and make you fat again.”</p>

<p>I wonder how much research money was expended to substantiate something that teenage girls already knew so many decades ago? :)</p>

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<p>So then, do Americans have a different genetic makeup than the rest of the humans who populate the world? Because Americans as a group are heavier than people from other countries. For example, with the exception of the summo wrestlers, I don’t think I saw one overweight person in Japan when I visited several years ago. I also lived in S. America for several years and there are fewer overweight people there (mostly just the post-menopausal women). Skinny people from families of thin people gain weight after living in the US for a while, while their relatives overseas stay thin. Also, children of foreign-born parents tend to be larger than their parents if they’re raised in the US. Genetics may play a role in some cases, but it seems to me it’s the availability of food here, the type of food, and the sedentary lifestyle that does it for most Americans.</p>

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<p>We don’t need science to substantiate any common knowledge, but rather to explain it and to build upon this knowledge. However, good science always agrees with established facts. As my genetics instructor used to say, Mother Nature always gives us the right answer, you just have to ask the right question :)</p>

<p>UCLAri, My lawyer will contact you shortly :p</p>

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<p>I think you get your information from popular TV shows. It does not take enormous amount of food to maintain excessive body weight, many obese people eat very reasonable diet which allows them to maintain their weight. </p>

<p>BTW, I am all for healthy lifestyle choices, but it’s important to keep our expectations in line with reality. You have to discriminate between weight gain resulting from laziness, poor judgment or lack of knowledge from metabolic disorders requiring medical intervention. Many of us forget that voluntary weight gain is even more difficult to attain then voluntary weight loss. You may notice that most people do not become excessively obese without any effort to diet or exercise. Usually they gain moderate amount of fat over many years, which would qualify them as being overweight but not obese. This population responds very favorably to exercise and diet, but I strongly doubt that these people face any significant health risk due to their excessive weight. An average man of 5’9” would be considered to have normal weight under 168 lb and obese at above 202 lb – there is a 34 lb gap which does not qualify him as being obese and many people never exceed this gap. However, clinical obesity is an entirely different situation, which needs a different approach and different attitude. The real tragedy, I repeat, tragedy, of severely obese people is that in addition to experiencing a life threatening disease, they face a negative stigma that must be directed at people who do not appear nearly as obese. You cannot judge severely obese people based on your own experience – their biology is different and they pay a high price for it. They don’t need blame or excuses – they need help.</p>

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<p>“I think you get your information from popular TV shows. It does not take enormous amount of food to maintain excessive body weight, many obese people eat very reasonable diet which allows them to maintain their weight.”</p>

<p>You are changing who you are speaking about Many MORBIDLY obese people cannot ambulate and get their food from other people providing it for them.</p>

<p>It is uncommon to have a true metabolic reason for obesity, and many of these problems are correctable.</p>

<p>People who become overweight over time often can control this by less food and more exercise. And there are problems related to this. One side-effect is the stress on the joints, leading to knee pain, hip pain, etc.</p>

<p>Same for obesity. If people consistently tried less food and more exercise for a few YEARS before taking drugs, then they would save themselves the potential side-effects from drugs or weight loss surgery, which can be profound. Then they sue the drug companies or doctors, when it is often impossible to tell whether the problem was from obesity or the drug.</p>

<p>I do not watch TV except occasionally, and have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe you have watched those programs like “Maury” or “Oprah” and see this information from their “experts”, but those are often sensationalists who either have a product or a book to sell. I have better sources.</p>

<p>But if the general public want to believe that they can sit around all day and drink beer and eat 2000 calorie meals, then so be it, I’ll just let other people believe that their obesity/overweight is beyond their control. Then they can be proud of themselves. But look at what people eat in resturants, and then go for the metabolic theory. </p>

<p>In my experience, which is very extensive, the status of the vast majority of overweight and obese people can be traced back to eating too much and sitting too much. I don’t think computers and TV have helped in this regard, which is also why I personally try to limit these, as well, and recommend this to other people.</p>

<p>But people nowadays like to eat, drive and sit. End of story.</p>

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<p>The NIH released a new chart
someone with a BMI of 25 is overweight
A BMI of 30 or above is obese
An average man of 5’9” would be considered to have normal weight under 168 lb and obese at above 202 lb – there is a 34 lb gap which does not qualify him as being obese and many people never exceed this gap.</p>

<p>For 5’9" weight of 170lbs is 25 BMI I think they would probably feel better at 150, unless they were really muscular.</p>

<p>My H- who is 53, has an active job- but pretty much eats crap- ( meat- sugar- dairy) has a BMI of 21
My 17 r old daughters is 18-
but my daughter looks better- she is lanky like her dad- but I think he is too thin
Mine is 25- the same as it was when I gave birth to my first! lol ( albeit 10 week early after my muscles dissolved after 16 weeks of bedrest)
But I have gone down to a low of 19 when I was in my 20s
( I think my 25 yr olds is 22- she weighs the same as her sister- but she is much more petite)</p>

<p>Fat cells are a double edged sword.
On the one hand I want to acknowledge that it can be more difficult to keep muscle as we get older- which burn calories much more efficently than fat cells, as well as it can be hard to eat healthily when we are rushed or if we have limited resources.</p>

<p>But I also see many people * accept* that as they get older, they are going to gain a lot of weight, that it is just their “body” type, and give up, or try odd diets in frantic efforts to lose it- & risking their health.
( my brother for example- was fasting on weekends & over eating during the week- I tried to tell him- that was actually going to make it harder to lose weight)</p>

<p>I was very slender for years, but then overweight with stress and depression, but adding muscle and aerobic exercise has not only made me feel better, it has lowered my cholesterol without meds, has given me better sleep habits and concentration and lifted my mood.
I still eat the same stuff-
but I have lost 3 whole dress sizes.- sometimes even 4.</p>

<p>The important thing IMO- is to watch what you eat and stay active, even increase activity level as you get older- not count calories.
[does your fat control your brain?](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43258-2004Jul11.html”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43258-2004Jul11.html&lt;/a&gt;)</p>

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<p>EK4,
Yes, I used the same guidelines. Of course, I only brought it up for an illustrative purpose. BMI is helpful but could be misleading and the guidelines change all the time, just like popular diets. The definition of obesity is also quite vague. I am not an MD, but I guess an accurate clinical assessment of obesity would include body weight composition analysis (percent body fat, muscle mass, bone density, water retention all influence body weight), physical exam, blood work, stress test… you get the idea. Overall, I think you are absolutely correct, our mental and physical health and strength are much more important then our physical appearance and the way it is perceived by the others.</p>

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<p>Cmom,
LOL, I’ve never heard about Maury and have no idea who he (she?) is. Oprah – yes, she is hard to miss. I considered mentioning her in one of my earlier posts. She would be a perfect candidate for winning her chronic weight battle. She has it all: wealth, motivation, publicity, best health consultants, personal cooks, personal trainers and I think nobody would ever accuse her of lacking motivation or willpower. I personally don’t like her shows but admire her ability and achievements. Nevertheless… I was talking about shows such as “big medicine” and several other shows (can’t remember the names) showing severely obese people and their struggles to loose weight in obesity clinics. </p>

<p>I think it’s time to end this dialog. Actually, I admire some of your posts on different threads and you seem to be a very rationale person, so I earnestly don’t understand why you rebuke any arguments, opinions, scientific or medical proofs, anecdotes or personal stories. I agree with many of your observations and indeed, as I pointed out earlier, they are correct in many cases, but you refuse to accept or recognize any alternatives. Trust me, metabolic disorders are far more common then you think. Perhaps you have some agenda or personal experience that influence your judgment, but I don’t want to make any guesses. Have a nice day.</p>

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<p>“Trust me, metabolic disorders are far more common then you think. Perhaps you have some agenda or personal experience that influence your judgment, but I don’t want to make any guesses.”</p>

<p>I have no agenda, I just have a lot of experience with obese people professionally, and I have found that generally, obesity is NOT due to some kind of mysterious noncorrectable metabolic illnesses. It is due to poor eating habits and lack of exercise generally in this society. When people are able to change these habits, they lose weight and increase muscle mass and endurance.</p>

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<p>Breaking news (and further evidence that obesity is not due to a metabolic illness or genetics.) Having obese friends increases your chances of becoming obese by 57 - 171%:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/25/AR2007072501353.html?hpid%3Dmoreheadlines&sub=AR[/url]”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/25/AR2007072501353.html?hpid%3Dmoreheadlines&sub=AR&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>(Perhaps someone else can cut and paste this article. Sorry I’m having trouble with it today!)</p>

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<p>Someone can chastise me if this was mentioned after page 2. (Read only the first 2 pages.) I’m just looking back at lifestyle differences between my childhood and today (or today’s childhoods). Maybe we were just a weird and overly formal or structured family, but maybe the structure helped.</p>

<p>Mom was in control of the food. There were 3 meals a day. Naturally as children we could also have snacks, but when we were young, Mom was in control of those, too. Generally, we didn’t just wander into the kitchen all day & eat when we pleased. (Sometimes larger families assisted in these informal restrictions, too, as there was not an unlimited amount of food, & when one item ran out, it was not necessarily immediately replenished.)</p>

<p>Think about it: most diets or diet plans involve structure, as well as some kind of portion control. There’s a lot more freedom today, even for young children, in their access to food. (That was not true when my own children were young; I think I unconsciously patterned myself on my Mom, my children asked for food between meals, & I decided what they had.)</p>

<p>Retail: the explosion of retail, esp. food. Forget about “fast food.” I’m talking Starbucks on “every corner” kind of thing. Food is more plentiful, more available, more accessible to all ages than it was in former “eras.”</p>

<p>Major, major difference, in my experience: Children’s freedom to exercise independently on a daily basis. Rare was the situation, in my childhood, when we were driven to another child’s home, to play. That happened if the association was a relative, or a former friend that we had moved away from, or vice versa. We walked everywhere: to friends’ houses several blocks away, alone (gasp! – never today, & of course I know why). We biked a lot. We roller skated a lot – no rinks (or rarely so; rinks were a big treat); the skating was on sidewalks and on unsupervised playgrounds (where we got in trouble for doing so). In summer there were few organized “programs” that lasted more than a couple of weeks. The rest of the summers usually consisted of hanging out, and that meant a lot of physical activity, because that was our recreation. So, swimming at the local pool every day. When we were bored, we did something physical, unsupervised.</p>

<p>Yes: a lot more organized sports today, for kids. Great physical activity. Swim teams (year round!) Soccer. And sports we never heard of when we were young. But, if you are not playing regularly in that sport, and that is not a very high-energy sport (etc), you are still not getting the “regular exercise” that previous children did.</p>

<p>All this leads up to the critical factor of metabolism being set early in life. That’s why I’m making such a point of it. I was looking at archived film of my D’s “ancient” high school. The clips we watched were from the '40’s through today. What a dramatic change in weight in those highschool girls, and this is a very rich school, so no one can blame the weight on poverty. As the film progressed through the decades, the girls kept getting fatter. Approximately 50% of any class at that school today is at least moderately overweight. The earlier in life this weight is put on, the more it affects metabolism for life.</p>

<p>And is it not true that in countries where people rely less on cars, there’s less obesity? Of course, that’s not only it, because look at all the skinny people in car-dependent L.A. But not everybody will adopt the culture of thinness; whereas lifestyle will “force” the body to get moving daily. </p>

<p>Just my .02. I think we need to get moving more as a society, as a priority.</p>