<p>Hanna: Yep, I thought the same thing about the bread. French bread is (by law, I believe!) made with only flour, water, salt, and yeast.</p>
<p>yes, I was wrong about the milk/eggs</p>
<p>I stand by the mass production of white bread etc being around the same time as corn syrup.</p>
<p>Just as a matter of information, some scientific studies have shown that overweight people actually eat less than “normal” people. I know no one will believe this is possible.</p>
<p>If it is being hurt too easily to feel attacked when told that I am at fault for a health problem then I am too easily hurt. I guess if I were told that my Cancer were my fault, for example, (Thank God I don’t have Cancer) I guess I would be silly to be hurt then too. My yoga teacher actually said that AIDs is more treatable in non-homosexuals because it was not their fault they contracted it. Needless to say she is my ex-Yoga teacher. A psychiatrist told me my asthma was “psychsomatic”. I was a seventeen year old girl who couldn’t breathe. A recent newspaper article detailed research that demonstrated that overweight children have the quality of life of Cancer patients because of the rejection they experience. But I guess I’m too sensitive.</p>
<p>If you need to hear me say it, I hate being fat. It would embarrass you if I detailed exactly how much. Compared to how much less I enjoy my own body like this (I did weigh 105 at 20 through massive diet and exercise so I do have a means of comparison) the disapproval of people on this thread is a minor annoyance. Arrogance, self-righteousness, lack of empathy, smugness, know-it-allness – these are disturbing.</p>
<p>I did try to avoid reading this to begin with, and I did consider not responding, but I am a professional educater. My posts have not really been on my own behalf.</p>
<p>Hanna–being a journalist doesn’t mean Pollan is making things up. As i said before, I expect bettre from you.</p>
<p>I will link some sites that include sources from peer-reviewed journals.</p>
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<p><a href=“http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html[/url]”>http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html</a></p>
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<p><a href=“http://www.obesityresearch.org/cgi/content/full/13/7/1146[/url]”>http://www.obesityresearch.org/cgi/content/full/13/7/1146</a></p>
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<p><a href=“http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/high-fructose-corn-syrup/AN01588[/url]”>http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/high-fructose-corn-syrup/AN01588</a></p>
<p>And, since you will then give the easy answer (which is a good one)–don’t drink sugary soft drinks (done), here is a list of some products that include HFCS:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.accidentalhedonist.com/index.php/2005/06/09/foods_and_products_containing_high_fruct[/url]”>http://www.accidentalhedonist.com/index.php/2005/06/09/foods_and_products_containing_high_fruct</a></p>
<p>Avoiding all of this is a good idea, if you know you should. but who’s looking for fruit sugar in whole grain bread, raisin bran, Nyquil, and Wheat Thins? Among hundreds of other food products.</p>
<p>" It is always at least incrementally better from a longterm health perspective to have your BMI in the normal range."</p>
<p>It may seem logical, but may not be true. A BMI of 25-30 is considered overweight but not obese. I will cite one article, </p>
<p>" Flegal and colleagues… demonstrated several key points including: 1) the number of annual deaths attributable to obesity is roughly 1/3 of that previously estimated by Allison et al3; 2) overweight (but not obesity) does not result in an increased rate of mortality compared to being in an appropriately chosen reference category of BMI and may even confer a survival advantage…"</p>
<p>From:
“Flegal KM, Graubard BI, Williamson DF, Gail MH (2005) Excess Deaths Associated With Underweight, Overweight, and Obesity. Obstet Gynecol Surv 2005 Sep;60(9):593-595.”</p>
<p>I don’t know if the intutitive belief that normal weight is healthier then overweight is true – but if it is, then I don’t think it is a huge health risk, per se.</p>
<p>I would suggest that people read the new book, 'Rethinking Thin" to get an interesting alternative perspective on a lot of things we think we know.</p>
<p>I will just finish with the observation that we have documented social problem with increased longevity, primarily the financial consequences of increased longevity on pension and long term health benefits. If we are getting fatter and sicker, why aren’t there more dead bodies? The morbidly obese may be saving us money, instead of being a cost burden, although I have never seen anyone mention anything but the costs.</p>
<p>I am only making the final point because of the complexity and frequently counter intuitive aspects of this emotionally charged subject.</p>
<p>Re: MythMom post #163</p>
<p>Another big hoo boy and uh huh to those who don’t understand.</p>
<p>I’ve noticed that your posts are thought provoking and insightful. I’ve known a few really sensitive people and it is just extraordinary how insightful they can be. We often call them empaths. They can be really sensitive about issues that are difficult to talk about or even that aren’t understood or known. To be that sensitive means to be … sensitive!</p>
<p>Overly sensitive? What does that mean? Here we go again with judging people without knowing their special circumstances. How do people have such gaul? I’m “copping out by making excuses for not exercising” (according to Bay.) And Mythmom brought up something that she noticed that no one else noticed and she’s called “too sensitive!” Maybe, just maybe, she noticed something that no one else did BECAUSE she is more sensitive. Maybe no one else cares about what she noticed, but SHE does! She has said that these postings have been very difficult for her and that’s it’s really painful to talk about it. There have been people posting on this thread who are amazingly INsensitive to other people’s feelings. And MythMom felt that. And probably wanted some support and recognition to continue opening up and talking about a subject that is obviously to difficult for her.</p>
<p>What if I were to say that those people are too INSENSITIVE? I would rather communicate and have relationships with sensitive people any day.</p>
<p>But she should probably stay off this thread and not contribute anymore because there are too many posters who are really too judgemental and absolutely too insensitive to even be discussing this with people who have such difficulties. But let’s chase off the one with integrity and insight and something to really say that is worth reading in favor of those who … don’t really care about other’s people’s feelings or how much their comments can hurt.</p>
<p>“Today’s Wall Street Journal featured a front-page article about the demand for Mexican-made Coca Cola in the U.S. Mexican Coke is made with cane sugar, unlike American Coke, which is sweetened with high fructose corn syrup. While some soda aficionados like Mexican Coke for its supposedly cleaner taste and better mouth feel, its main market in the U.S. is to Mexican immigrants. While Coca Cola authorizes several bottlers to distribute its products in Mexico, the company is continually trying to stop the importation of those soft drinks into the U.S. for fear that they’ll compete with the sodas bottled here. Since the bottles aren’t actually counterfeit, they’re still legal to import. The results are slightly covert networks of distributors that import Mexican Coke to the U.S. and then distribute it throughout the country. The WSJ traces a few bottles from Mexico to Georgia.”</p>
<p>This is for those that just have to have the real thing.</p>
<p>I have seen Mexican coke sold at a local market for about $1.25.</p>
<p>LuxArtesVeritas: I think your word couter-intuitive is the word rolling around in my brain that wouldn’t surface. Thank you.</p>
<p>It’s been a long time since I had anything but diet coke, but now I know I can go into a store for a sugar coke! LOL.</p>
<p>Thinking about this thread again and the difficulty of finding stuff that is healthy, breakfast cereal included. When I eat cereal I eat Grape-Nuts. I have never looked at the ingredient list. Guess what, no HFCS…</p>
<p>Phew. Breakfast is safe.</p>
<p><a href=“http://no-hfcs.tripod.com/[/url]”>http://no-hfcs.tripod.com/</a></p>
<p>Well, the weather finally cleared enough to get my walk in, :), and while walking, I was thinking about this thread a lot. One point that seems to be made by folks on all sides, is that society has become toxic with its sedentary jobs, lack of safe places to exercise (no sidewalks in some neighborhoods, for example), loss of gym time in schools, supersized cheap food subsidized by federal handouts, high expense of better foods, soda machines in schools, etc etc; however, there seems to be often an attitude that, though the problem is societal wide and largely societal promoted, it’s solely up to the individual to do something about it.</p>
<p>Many people of good will would not counsel the discriminated against to “have more will power” to get ahead, or the learning disabled to “try harder” to learn. We accept that societal problems need to be confronted by a combination of both societal and personal responses.</p>
<p>There’s a parable about helping others, which goes, basically, that a group of villagers keep seeing babies floating by in the river. When they see one, they jump in to save it, but they never go upstream to find out who’s throwing the babies in, and stop it from happening.</p>
<p>The attitude about food and weight in this country seems akin to this. We see a lot of people floundering in a flood, 65% of us, in fact. So, we exhort them to swim harder, and keep their heads above water if at all possible, sometimes kindly, sometimes with derision. this is not bad advice, certainly I myself work hard not to drown.</p>
<p>But wouldn’t it be smarter, and more cost effective, and kinder, to figure out what’s causing the flood in the first place, and stop it?</p>
<p>Garland, this is such an excellent post. </p>
<p>I think it is folly to think that the food manufacturers, dieticians, medical personnel, etc. do not have a sense of what is making us all so fat. They know, and you have highlighted most of the reasons in your first paragraph.</p>
<p>It’s hard to put the genie back in the bottle. “Whole foods” typically take longer to cook and are more expensive. Many working parents do rely on fast foods, or pre-packaged foods (even those gigantic portions from Costco), simply due to issues with time. It’s hard to make a great meal from scratch if you are just walking in the door at 6 p.m. The food industry has capitalized on the fact that everyone is too busy, stressed out and rushed. Prepackaged food tastes pretty darn good, even if it is loaded with fat, sugar, etc. If it weren’t available, people would be forced to eat whole foods. But turning back the clock on that one? Don’t see it happening readily.</p>
<p>Furthermore, I suspect that many of the allergies, asthmas, higher cases of depression, issues in attention and learning, perhaps even some autisms, will one day be traced to these metabolic changes, based on chemicals, additives, etc. that are rampant in our environment (including our food sources). It would take a major sea change, at a policy level, to move things back (if this is even possible), and again, I don’t expect anything of the sort to happen as long as there are financial incentives to maintain the status quo.</p>
<p>Mythmom, thank you for your pointed, intelligent, concise post. I don’t think you’re being TOO anything.</p>
<p>Garland, I’ve had similar musings regarding this thread, though in less well put words. Contemplating the puntative words for those who are overweight, I am reminded of the fact that tends to astound me every time I walk into an American restaurant. There is nothing healthy to eat! With the advent of the South Beach diet in the marketplace and some of Weight Watchers teaching, perhaps the light dawning as to what a healthy diet entails, availability of healthy food is starting to improve, marginally. People perhaps eat healthier food at home, but seeing the scornful reactions to our home cooked, vegetable filled meals from my Ds peers, I doubt it. Families seem to cook far less than ever, and somehow this is acceptable. We’re ‘too busy’ as a society. </p>
<p>So, with our culture in this fast food, frozen food, eat out mode, you blame the populace for not refusing most of the food available out there? It takes a high degree of commitment and education about food choices, as well as iron willed resolve to go say no over and over to most of what our society offers. Now my group of friends is of a different ilk, as well as the many educated people who exercise, eat organic and so on. But much of the population does not have this sort of peer group, or these values, even if they know they should ‘eat better’. And even if you do, it is not easy to say no to ice cream on a hot day, or a friends’ birthday cake. Most of us are happiest, live our lives in the middle of a certain cohort. As noted above, it requires a societal as well as personal response to combat this dietary insanity. Societal change takes time, and inroads are being made. Don’t be too harsh on those who eat the foods they grew up with and find around them. I think that’s what humans have done throughout history, though unfortunately now portions are supersized. </p>
<p>I remember when ‘natural soda’ became available in my sugar banning food co-op in the early '80s. Fructose, what a healthy way to have a treat! Look where that lead us…I’m going to start watching for corn based sweeteners more carefully after this.</p>
<p>There was mention earlier on this thread of a Indian tribe in the Southwest with high rates of diabetes. Historically called Pima, now Tohono O’odhan. Note the information on their genetic issues with weight in the site below.</p>
<p><a href=“http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/pima/obesity/obesity.htm[/url]”>http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/pima/obesity/obesity.htm</a></p>
<p>Lots of very thoughtful posts.</p>
<p>My son has been a very,very healthy eater for about 5 yrs. now. He reported back after the first few months at college that he could continue to eat relatively healthy food in the cafeteria. Whole wheat selections, salad and vegetable offerings, lots of beans and meat selections not breaded or in sauces. His big complaint was that he could taste some amount of sugar in everything. Huge change from fried and sauce covered everything back in my college days.</p>
<p>I’d like to see the FDA rework the food pyramid one more time with less carbs, milk and fruit and more lean protein and veggies.</p>
<p>I think it’s great that trans fats are finally being exposed, I love the cartoon station that tells kids to turn off the TV and go out and play, and I’d like to see junk food ads banned from TV (like alcohol and cigarettes). How about you?</p>
<p>Kosher Coke is also made with cane sugar…so check your grocer’s matzoh aisle! I notice they carry it more at Passover but since the ‘ethnic’ aisles tend to be expanding, they may have it at other seasons.</p>
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Well, it’s pretty well-documented that severely calorie-restricted diets (and accompanying thinness) prolong life quite dramatically in lab animals. It’s difficult to replicate those studies in humans, because nobody can stick to that kind of diet for long.</p>
<p>The bottom line is more or less that your metabolism is bad for you, and the more you can turn down your metabolic furnace, the more healthy you will be. But very few people can maintain such a severely restricted diet, so what we call “thin” or “normal” is really just less unhealthy than “obese” – it’s not that being thin is healthy, it’s just less unhealthy than being obese, in very general, hand-wavy terms.</p>
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<p>One place in the US where all soft drinks are still made with real sugar instead of high-fructose corn syrup is Hawaii. It’s pure economics. It’s much cheaper there to bottle the drinks using locally-grown sugar rather the corn syrup which must be shipped in.</p>
<p>Buy a Coke in Honolulu and you get a taste of the 1960s again.</p>
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<p>What do they consider “very muscular”? I do gymnastics, and I’ve known people who are about 5’1 or 5’2" and 140 lbs but wear a size 3. I’m 5’1, and probably close to 130 now, but almost solid muscle (I’m “strong” even for a gymnast my age). At that weight, I still have a defined six pack, so almost no abdominal fat. Sadly, I clearly have almost all fast twitch muscles (muscle type plays a role in how calories are burned too) so after I quit I’m probably going to have to work hard. </p>
<p>BMI calculations don’t work all that well in measuring healthy for some people. People generally assume I weigh about 20 lbs less than I do but the muscle adds a lot. I would say I’m in better shape than most people.</p>
<p>It is my opinion that if people are relatively normal (ie bmi in the 20’s which includes overweight but not obese), then what they eat is more important than how much.</p>
<p>If you are in this group (bmi - 20’s), then it is certain that some bad habits can more than offset a few extra pounds (smoking). </p>
<p>Until a couple of months ago, I thought that seafood actually came from the sea! How naive. I’d be curious to see how those CR rats would do on some farm raised imported seafood.</p>