Progress Being Made in Iraq (NY Times)

Parent Cafe
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<p>You left out the part about how the longer the child carries the table, the less willing and able the shop owner is to pitch in and help protect his merchandise.</p>

<p>As mini pointed out, we’re going backwards on some benchmarks. And the Pentagon has confirmed that the Iraqi army is now less ready than pre-surge.</p>

<p>When the surge was first proposed, it was opposed by the Joint Chiefs and Staff because there was no practical reason to think it would do anything other than hurt the political situation, weaken the Iraqi military, and escalate our costs both in lives and money. The AEI and other argued we should do it anyway, simply because you couldn’t think of anything else to try.</p>

<p>So what comes next? What will be the next ill-advised thing the pro-occupation crowd will insist on doing, despite all the warnings, and heedless of the consequences?</p>

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As someone I heard speak not long ago said…it was someone like Wesley Clark or Bill Perry…one side is saying “Why should we compromise?” and the other is saying “How can we compromise?”</p>

<p>For quite some time now and extending into the foreseeable future, the defining events in Iraq are Iraqi political, not American military, which at some point is going to shift from of little consequence to outright irrelevance. The True Believers think, “If the hammer isn’t working, get a bigger hammer.” The notion of American force being irrelevant is just too incomprehensible.</p>

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<p>Just watch the Democrats choke.</p>

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<p>Mini, the Democrats may not do what you want but that doesn’t constitute a “choke.”</p>

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<p>From Post 213…… I didn’t realize that the surge was political, not military.</p>

<p>The purpose of all military action by a nation state is political…military action without a political goal is banditry….</p>

<p>The biggest problem the right wing has is their misunderstanding of the basics of history, geography, cultures, and human nature. </p>

<p>The best description I have ever hear of the current Bush administration, came very early, after Bush was first elected but before he became president.</p>

<p>“The C students are in charge, and they have no appreciation for, or understanding of, either history or geography.”</p>

<p>Sadly for all of us, Kurt Vonnegut’s penetrating insight was all too true.</p>

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<p>"Mini, the Democrats may not do what you want but that doesn’t constitute a “choke.”</p>

<p>No, they will choke. They will end up with the hostile, aggressive occupation on their hands when one takes office in 2009, having been responsible for funding the war effort that keeps the suicide death squads there, and then taking responsibility for when things fall apart further. But since they supported the occupation from the beginning (and war since February 1998), that really isn’t so surprising.</p>

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<p>I agree that they will inherit an occupation in January 2009. That’s a hard reality, given the presidential veto power. </p>

<p>Which is why I’m determined to do what I can to keep the neocon “drunks at the wheel” away from power as much as possible. </p>

<p>Donate time, donate money, donate arguments.</p>

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<p>“I agree that they will inherit an occupation in January 2009. That’s a hard reality, given the presidential veto power.”</p>

<p>Not at all. Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi can, singlehandedly, pull the plug anytime they choose. They don’t need a vote and, in theory, don’t even need the support of a single other Democrat.</p>

<p>But they’re cowards. And tens of thousands of people will lose their lives, and hundreds of thousands more will be made homeless because of it.</p>

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<p>“And tens of thousands of people will lose their lives, and hundreds of thousands more will be made homeless because of it.”</p>

<p>You have this reversed. The mini program of rapid withdrawal will result in hundreds of thousands of dead people and countless orphans. Vietnam redux.</p>

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<p>^but without the 50,000 dead American soldiers.</p>

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<p>Don’t forget to mention the more than 1,000,000 dead Vietnamese.</p>

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<p>“You have this reversed. The mini program of rapid withdrawal will result in hundreds of thousands of dead people and countless orphans. Vietnam redux.”</p>

<p>The most experienced diplomat in the field of candidates says you’re wrong. But you may be right. Either way, the 1,650,000 deaths for which the U.S. is responsible since 1992 could go up, and the two million refugees could easily double. </p>

<p>We could start using the hundreds of billions we are spending now on death and use it to ease suffering, or we could throw bad money after bad. We’ve already proven what DOESN’T work.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, where are the AMERICAN benchmarks? Where is the electricity? Where are the oil revenues? Where are the hospitals? Where are the medical supplies? Where are the roads? Where are the rebuilt universities? Where are the water supplies? Are we only to be trusted in the killings department?</p>

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<p>It has been clear from the start of this whole dreadful business that the invasion of Iraq was never about electricity, roads, universities and so forth. It has always been about plunder and geopolitical positioning.</p>

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<p>Wow, never let the facts get in the way of your revisionist history which says that what spurred the great killing in Vietnam was our withdrawal (and that if we haven’t left we might have won.)</p>

<p>The truest understanding of Vietnam comes from an American (British) hero who valiantly fought there and who also saved thousands on 9/11:</p>

<p><a href=“http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/voice_prophet[/url]”>http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/voice_prophet&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>We are a mighty powerful nation, but we are not omnipotent and in the end we don’t win against “national morality.”</p>

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<p>The “military progress” in Iraq has little to do with the actual surge in no. of troops, and has much more to do with the change in strategy in dealing with the Sunnis.</p>

<p>Instead of insisting that “national” Iraqi police and military oversee security in Sunni areas (which was really stupid since the Sunnis totally distrust the Shia-dominated police and army), US commanders have struck deals with many Sunni tribal leaders and militia leaders where they, and NOT the “national” Iraqi govt. is in charge (much to the chagrin of Maliki).</p>

<p>Since these deals have been struck, the majority of American casualties have been caused by Shia militants (so much for doing them a “favor”).</p>

<p>As much as the Iraqi Sunnis dislike us Americans for kicking them out of power, they distrust and hate the Shias even more (plus, most never liked al Qaeda in the 1st place, and dislike them even more for trying to impose the strict Wahhabi lifestyle).</p>

<p>While Senator Biden has his faults, he is one of the few politicians who really understands what is going on (it’s not surprising that Biden is a student of history who also understands that people from different cultures don’t necessarily think the same way; unfortunately, the same can’t be said of Bush, Cheney and Co.).</p>

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<p>As opposed to the hundreds of thousands already dead (not to mention the orphans)?</p>

<p>Whether we remain in Iraq for 6 more months or 6 more years, the Sunni and Shia will eventually battle it out, as will factions within each group.</p>

<p>(There was a recent story of a battle being waged btwn Sunni and Shia militants and when US forces arrived to try to halt the fighting, both sides turned their fire onto our boys.)</p>

<p>The majority of the educated, secular Iraqis have already fled Iraq and much of what’s left in Iraq are hardliners, militants, old-school tribal factions, etc.</p>

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<p>Neither Senator Biden nor any other representative or agent of the United States has any rightful business interfering in Iraq. The US has caused a hideous amount of damage and destruction in Iraq and needs to leave right now, today. Drop the sorry excuses, misrepresentations, lies, and manipulations, and take the whole superstructure of repression, coercion, and cruelty out of Iraq. Immediately.</p>

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<p>“Don’t forget to mention the more than 1,000,000 dead Vietnamese.”</p>

<p>I know - that is how many it is estimated to have been killed at the hands of the North Vietnamese after they invaded the South with the assistance of the USSR and the South, with no assistance from us couldn’t hold them back.</p>

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<p>Uhh, Sen. Biden isn’t for “interefering” in Iraq either, but he also doesn’t want to leave it a mess either.</p>

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<p>You do realize that much of the South didn’t even support their corrupt, inept govt.</p>

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<p>It’s not up to some fatuous member of a millionaire’s club who thinks he has a mandate to meddle in a sovereign overseas nation, nor should it be.</p>

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<p>Because all the years we had been in Vietnam up to this point we had demonstrated a remarkable capacity to keep killing from occurring and to safeguard a fledgling democracy and help it take root (to mix metaphors) and fluorish.</p>

<p>After we left prematurely, the inevitable domino of states falling to communism as the spread of the evil empire occurred.</p>

<p>If in our all-powerfulness we had stayed in Vietnam, these people would have stopped viewing us as a foreign interloper and would have instead seen that we were on the side of all that is right and just in the world. They would have been pacified and, in this envelope of good feeling and security, the democratic nation of Vietnam would have prevailed immediately.</p>

<p>To think a few American-hating leftists in our government pulled us out right when we were poised to achieve so much good. It’s so pathetic.</p>