<p>Parents on CC tend to have kids that are well above the mean. These same kids also tend to go to upper level universities that may or may not give credit for the AP class. For the average high school student, AP courses are quite challenging and they certainly can’t self study them (another CC quirk). Average students are going to state colleges that usually give full credit for all AP’s, thus saving the kids and their parents $$.</p>
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<p>First of all, it’s a little funny that “average” kids are taking supposed “advanced” classes.
But assuming I accept that, my point stands.</p>
<p>“Average” students are precisely the students who should not be skipping critical introductory college courses. Many run into signifcant problems later on. I’ve seen it. It may save a little money to begin with, but in the long run it doesn’t benefit them.</p>
<p>Now, skipping some gen ed requirements they don’t want to take, that’s different.</p>
<p>Exactly, Bovertine! </p>
<p>The current environment and transition from high school to college has become a haven for confusion. On the one hand, we have high schools that pretend to deliver a college education but cannot seem to educate the majority of its students at a level that wold make remedial classes unnecessary. On the other hand, we have colleges that have to offer remedial classes to hordes of ill-prepared students. And this does not even begin to address the thousands of students who have never written a single paper in their entire K-12 education, or at least something that deserves to be called a paper.</p>
<p>The AP program, despite the benefits it used to provide students and school in the early years, had lost its identity. Developed as an Advanced Placement program, it has been marketed as a “cost-saving” tool via the extensive marketing of college credits, with the quasi duplicity of colleges that rely on this boondoggle to churn out students within the “reasonable” four to six years graduation window. </p>
<p>If the trends continue --and why not-- students will enter state universities as juniors and graduate after 18 to 24 months! All of this cheapens our entire system of education making a college education so uncommon that it loses all value. Our college degrees are fast becoming the high school diplomas of yesterday. Soon, a master’s degree will become the gateway for decent employment. Take a look at the abundance of cheap graduation education in the education sector for a glimpse at the problem. </p>
<p>It is time for high schools to stop pretending to be something they are not, and perhaps focusing on the simpler task of graduating more students who can read, write, and think reasonably well to perform tasks our great-grandfathers mastered before entering high school. </p>
<p>Oh well!</p>
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<p>Average students also aren’t going to be taking a dozen AP tests, and probably concentrate on the more useful ones that have existed for a while like English and Calculus, rather than trying to pad their university applications with the more obscure ones like those listed in the first post (though if they read these forums, they might get hints that some of them are relatively easy to self-study, which calls into question whether those AP tests really represent university level material). And if these average students do enter university with AP credit, they may not be as comfortable skipping intro courses if they only got a 3.</p>
<p>If students are ONLY taking AP classes to get credit, that is setting them up for big disappointment. The primary purpose should be to become accustomed to college level work, so they are not overwhelmed in their adjusting to their freshman year. The freshman year drop out rate at many colleges is extremely high.</p>
<p>Also, look closely at the AP policies for the colleges where you applying - they vary greatly. It may be the difference between 2 semesters of credit or none at all for the same AP test results.</p>
<p>I’m told that there are some students who load up on AP classes their senior year, simply to look good for college applications, but with little intent to do the proper amount of work. I imagine this motivation works best for someone trying for early action or early decision or a college with rolling admissions.</p>
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<p>One can argue that many of the AP courses and tests in question are not really university level, considering all of the “self study for AP _____” threads in the AP forum. I mean, if university level work were that easy, why attend a university to learn it?</p>
<p>Indeed, in many cases, subject credit is not given because the universities or their departments do not consider the AP courses and tests to be sufficient substitutes for the university courses (e.g. AP Physics B and any AP History at UC Berkeley).</p>
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<p>I don’t think that claim can stand up to scrutiny …</p>
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<p>I don’t think I was very clear on the use of the word “average”. Maybe I should have said average kids going to a 4 year college.</p>
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<p>While many of the average kids do take AP English, most do not take AP Calculus (I know CCers think everyone takes AP Calculus in HS hahaha)</p>
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<p>Kids entering “state universities” with two to two and a half years of college already under their belt due to AP credits? Uhm…not likely anytime within the next 25 years. </p>
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<p>I believe you are comparing apples to oranges here–back in great grandpa’s day only about 15% of the population graduated from HS and now that number is closer to 70%. When you only have the most privileged (and well behaved) in school, you get a lot better results. </p>
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<p>The universities you are referring to are not the type the majority of the population attends. UCB for instance has about 4,000 freshman and yet there were 135,000 CA HS graduates who were UC/CSU eligible. So you are talking about only 3% of CA students who are going (or are eligible to go) to a 4 year college and only 1% of all CA HS graduates(385,000). </p>
<p>Why such a narrow focus? Of course the top 3% (give or take to adjust for those that go to a private U) probably need something different than the other 97% of college students. I think we often forget what the “average” college kid really looks like.</p>
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<p>I don’t think that’s true, especially with something like English. I never went to high school and self-studied everything (ended up getting my GED), and I did really well on all the standardized tests I took. (I’m a very young mom, so I haven’t had a bunch of adult years to be educated by the world either.) </p>
<p>However, that’s not where it ends. Even without practice writing papers, I seem to have soaked up some ideas about how to do it from my extensive reading because I haven’t gotten anything less than a 95% on any paper so far in college. I skipped English 101 because of my AP and/or SAT score, and that has caused no problems. I even took a senior/grad combo level literature course (vastly out of order, I know) before I officially enrolled in college and got an A. </p>
<p>I did choose not to skip other intro courses, but I’m still doing better in them than most people who went to high school… I don’t think it’s because I accumulated facts so much as because I read REALLY, REALLY widely both in terms of style and subject matter, and I’m always passionate about what I’m studying. There’s never a topic that I don’t want to unravel.</p>
<p>I do agree though that give and take, discussion, etc – those eventually must become part of the learning process in order for it to be as enriching as it could be. But there are a few superlative self-teachers out there in the world. (I don’t count myself among them – I’m talking about people who’ve figured out unbelievably advanced math by age twelve or something.)</p>
<p>Another benefit of the AP program is that it provides national curriculum standards.</p>
<p>E.g., Texas is dropping Jefferson from their US History curriculum standards.
See <a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html</a></p>
<p>But, thanks to the College Board, Texan kids who want to pass APUSH will still need to learn about the separation of church and state.</p>
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Isn’t that true in general in all areas of education? In 60s, 70s, people didn’t have to go to college to be a productive member of the society. Colleges were for people who were really academically able and willing. My H said in his HS class, a lot of people didn’t go to college but could read well and do math. nowadays you have to go to college to be able to read! I’m amazed at the poor mental ability of my students in college. They are also behaving like little children in the first one of two years of college. (I teach in a reasonably good college, according to US News.) What is wrong with high schools???</p>
<p>Consider that, I’d say AP is a good thing. Yes CB makes money but at least my kids can be grouped with kids similar to them and learn things. With national AP exams, I hope some standards are being enforced.</p>
<p>Using APs to get out of some freshman requirements frees up the schedule and allows a student more flexibility in customizing her academic schedule - nice tool to have.</p>
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<p>In some schools you need a “5” on AP Physics C to skip even one semester. So what does this logically mean? A passing grade in college is a “C” (a D may be passing some places, but let’s assume for the sake of argument a C is passing). If a school does not accept a score of “4” on an AP Physics C exam for course or subject credit, that must mean that the school does not consider a 4 or lower to be equivalent to a grade of “C” in that class. </p>
<p>As I said in an earlier post, a score of “5” may mean you are a genius who has mastered advanced college level subject matter, but all it really implies is that you have performed well enough on an exam to get the same credit someone gets for earning a C in the introductory course. </p>
<p>Now I believe that the majority of AP students score 4 or below on the AP exams. So although the student may be recieving some benefit from the course, they are not even performing passing college level work in the eyes of some institutions.</p>
<p>Depending on your perspective: For CB, the revenue from the fees. From the student’s perspective: 1. Make the student standing out in the application pool. 2. Cutting down time required for graduation, or get you into double or triple majors. As for the question of whether students actually learned anything in the AP class? I am not sure of the value of AP classes. It all depends on the quality of the teacher and the motivation of the individual student.</p>
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<p>Aaaggghh! That’s receiving. I must have forgotten my AP English.</p>
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<p>So do you believe ALL institutions should have the same standard? Do you really think an introductory physics course at Cal State Fullerton is equivalent to one at MIT? Is an engineer from CSF equivalent to one at MIT? I believe they have met the same minimum standard in order to get their professional license but I would assume that the one from MIT probably had quite a bit more depth and rigor. I also think the engineer from CSF can probably handle the majority of everyday engineering needs and is a productive citizen. All engineers do not need an MIT degree.</p>
<p>Your post implies that since some institutions believe a 4 is not enough for credit at their university, no university should consider it good enough. AND the universities that do not consider a 4 on the physics C exam “passing” is a VERY small percentage of universities.</p>
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<p>Most high schools do not have a choice in the students they must each. You teach at a good college that accepts students that behave like little children? Sounds like your institution is the one with the problem.</p>
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<p>No apples and oranges. I addressed the fact that high schools should concentrate on graduating students with a set of basic and useful skills. Do you consider it an improvement if we used to graduate 15 percent and in 2011 still fail to graduate 30 percent? </p>
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<p>What a strange way to look at the CA numbers? Why look at the Cal only? </p>
<p>According to your numbers, there were 135,000 UC/CSU eligible students in California. Do you have any idea how many students who were UC eligible were offered admission at one of the UC schools? More than 50%?</p>
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<p>Actually we do NOT forget, and that is what is frightening, as the “average” college kid is the best reflection of what the “average” graduating HS school student is.</p>
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<p>AP Physics B (one of the AP tests listed as being of dubious value in the first post) is not equivalent to introductory physics for engineering majors at either CSU Fullerton or MIT.</p>
<p>An engineering student needs AP Physics C to get subject credit for one physics course (mechanics only, not E&M) at either CSU Fullerton or MIT, although CSU Fullerton requires a score of 3 while MIT requires a score of 5.</p>