Proliferation of AP tests of dubious credit value

[mtnmomma]

<p>

Yes, CSU Fullerton does give credit for “physics for biology majors” for AP Physics B. However, a large percentage of biology majors are pre-meds, so that AP Physics B credit is still useless to those students, since medical schools want to see actual university courses rather than AP credit for pre-med courses.

</p>

<p>hahaha–now instead of engineers we can talk about students who want to go to medical school. You could care less about the typical college student, you just want to argue your point. I thought you started this thread with an intention of intelligent conversation on the topic. </p>

<p>My bad.</p>

[leafblade1354]

<p>Want to agree with whoever said that self-studied AP courses are not necessarily good. I passed the Physics C tests and trust me, I don’t know physics. So that test was completely useless.</p>

[bovertine]

<p>

With ~3,000 colleges, there are all kinds of permutations, bovertine, even for science wannabes. For example, pre-health aces AP Bio, and scores a 5.

</p>

<p>

So, in this instance, a premed is using AP credits.

</p>

<p>Again, I don’t disagree with this. In fact I believe this judicious approach with AP credits is a fantastic way to use them. Particularly for the minority who score 5. I think I’ve written as much frequently - it should not be the university policy about the test score, but rather the student who carefully and conservatively decides how much of the introductory curriculum they can afford to skip. THe score is merely a very rudimentary “gatekeeper” the univeristy employs to avoid classes overpopulated with ill-prepared students. </p>

<p>But again, we’re talking 1 million students taking 2 million exams a year. I really wonder how many of these students employ this type of discretion.</p>

[bovertine]

<p>

Want to agree with whoever said that self-studied AP courses are not necessarily good. I passed the Physics C tests and trust me, I don’t know physics. So that test was completely useless.

If I’m the person who somehow implied this I want to make it clear that I didn’t mean to say that a person who passes this exam doesn’t know any physics. It is not an easy test. I merely think a person needs to be careful not to overestimate their level of expertise based on this test alone. In your case, I think you may be underestimating your ability.</p>

[xiggi]

<p>

Because CB is just the messenger in this business. CB is a non-profit corporation (that makes millions and pays its top staff lavishly), but still a non-profit which runs under the direction of a Board made up of colleges. CB performs a function for the colleges, not students and not parents. The member college see value in CB’s services. It’s the member colleges that require you, me, our kids to deal with CB. </p>

<p>If you want to “criticize”, look first at the colleges themselves. If the colleges did not find CB’s services of value, CB would not exist.

</p>

<p>Exactly. And that’s why a lot of the criticism hurled at the College Board is unwarranted. </p>

<p>In the case, the proliferation of AP courses could be mitigated by three simple steps: </p>

<ol>
<li>Stop accepting the AP for credit and only use them for placement.</li>
<li>Restrict AP listings on the applications to a maximum of three and remove GPA weights</li>
<li>Tell students that any submission over the allowed number will be deleted or make the application invalid.</li>
</ol>

<p>However, we should not hold our bated breath to see this happening anytime soon. All you need to do is remember the hypocrisy of the defrocked MIT admission director. She tried to create an image of advocating for less pressure placed on the students and hoping to see students regaining their summers, and more similar blah blah, but did not find it problematic to increase the lines for listing accomplishments on MIT’s application.</p>

[bluebayou]

<p>xiggi:</p>

<p>I have no objection to any of your suggestions, but I’d go one further: get rid of the SAT and the need for the xiggi method (sorry, by cyberfriend). Replace the SAT with Subject Tests alone. A college could require as many or few as it saw fit. But if I was a college, I’d recommend one math (a new one, which sort of splits the difference between M1 and M2 bcos mine would include more Alg II and a few precalc problems), one lit-type (perhaps reincarnating something like the former Writing test), and one ST of a student’s choice. And, if a student wanted to submit a native language test, so be it (and perhaps suffer the consequences).</p>

<p>No score choice (which encourages cheating).</p>

[LoremIpsum]

<p>

I also think many of the exams are a joke.

</p>

<p>That’s what my son says about the ACT and the PSAT (he didn’t take the SAT). He got absolutely perfect scores on both those tests, ACT 36.0 and PSAT 240. Yet he doesn’t say the same about his AP tests, even though he scored 5’s in BC Calculus, Stats, Chemistry, Physics B and the two Physics C’s (all in the same year) – there were some challenging questions on every test and while his results were probably well above the cut-off, he did come home annoyed that were sometimes 10-15% of the questions where he wasn’t sure of the answer.</p>

<p>AP tests are still the high frontier for top students and one way to keep them from dropping out of high school from sheer boredom. My son polished off the last of his school’s math curriculum, AP Stats and AP Calculus, during his sophomore year. Goodness knows what we would have done if his high school didn’t offer APs – withdraw him from the school and have him sit in on college classes, probably, even if he wasn’t allowed to officially enroll in them.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

What AP courses are theoretically about : getting college credits</p>

<p>What AP courses SHOULD be about: enriching learning</p>

<p>What AP courses are REALLY about: Strengthening college applications

</p>

<p>Very well said.
Frankly, that’s exactly how I treated them when I was in school, and how I treated them with my kids. The AP-credit-granting-policies of the institutions are irrelevant, this isn’t about graduating in 3.5 years instead of 4. These are honors-level classes (and in our school, like many others, honors = AP) and they signify to a college that you took the highest level class in the subject. If testing out of something benefits you, great, but this isn’t about saving money.</p>

[sax]

<p>Well, for some, it could certainly be about saving money. </p>

<p>If you can graduate in 3 years instead of four not only do you save a years tuition but you are earning an income for that year. So not only do you save $30,000 you can also save the $40,000 or so you make that year in the workforce.</p>

<p>If you cannot afford 4 years of college or do not want to go into debt this is a terrific way to get what you need. </p>

<p>There is plenty to learn and experience in the workforce and in a job in your field.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>Of course, sax. I’m saying that for me and how I thought about them for my kids, the prospect of graduating early / saving money wasn’t at all relevant. I saw them primarily as advanced courses that look good for colleges, and in my district they’re interchangeable with honors anyway. There may be school districts that have the luxury of running 3 tracks - regular, honors, AP - but mine doesn’t.</p>

<p>Now that my kids are seniors and have gotten into the colleges of their choice, I don’t particularly even care if they take the AP tests in their current classes (none are required as part of the class). Nor do I really care if they leverage any scores they currently have. As an example, D is a potential chemistry major and got a 5 on the AP Chem as a junior, but it’s fine and dandy with me if she just starts at the basic chem level. I see no need to leapfrog to a higher chemistry level to prove a point, and college will be enough of an adjustment.</p>

[bovertine]

<p>

That’s what my son says about the ACT and the PSAT (he didn’t take the SAT). He got absolutely perfect scores on both those tests, ACT 36.0 and PSAT 240. Yet he doesn’t say the same about his AP tests, even though he scored 5’s in BC Calculus, Stats, Chemistry, Physics B and the two Physics C’s (all in the same year) – there were some challenging questions on every test and while his results were probably well above the cut-off, he did come home annoyed that were sometimes 10-15% of the questions where he wasn’t sure of the answer.

</p>

<p>How lovely for him. Because of these wonderful scores I’m sure that he would be able to interpret the word “many” for you. Most of the exams you mention are reasonably difficult. </p>

<p>I do find it somewhat interesting that a student this advanced would find the AP Stats exam to be particularly challenging.</p>

<p>If you respond, no need to repeat the test scores. I think I’ve got it. I probably should not have dared to post an opinion after reading them, but heck, I live for danger. If you have to disable that macro that puts the scores in every post, that’s okay, don’t bother.</p>

[bovertine]

<p>

The perimeter of a 7-sided figure is 15. If the length of each side of the figure is increased by 2 units, what is the perimeter of the new figure?</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>This was today’s SAT question of the day. At the time I looked, 29% of the students answering had it wrong. Isn’t this 3rd grade geometry, or something like that?</p>

<p>Sigh. Sure, it’s important to expand opportunity for the more advanced student. But I don’t think it’s the most pressing issue in education today.</p>

[LoremIpsum]

<p>

If you can graduate in 3 years instead of four not only do you save a years tuition but you are earning an income for that year.

</p>

<p>If you’re planning on getting an advanced degree, the time and cost savings of shaving a year off your undergrad degree becomes even more of a factor.</p>

<p>

If you respond, no need to repeat the test scores. I think I’ve got it. I probably should not have dared to post an opinion after reading them, but heck, I live for danger. If you have to disable that macro that puts the scores in every post, that’s okay, don’t bother.

</p>

<p>Hey, no fair, Bovertine! I did not mention my kid’s scores ONCE in the “Sex in Class” thread! ;)</p>

[xiggi]

<p>BB, here is a trip down memory lane:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/126655-nyt-petition-split-sat-into-three.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/126655-nyt-petition-split-sat-into-three.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>

12-16-2005, 09:11 AM #13<br>
BY xiggi </p>

<p>I still think that the SAT and SAT Subject Tests should take the place of the 2 weeks reserved to the AP each May. Actually, one week should be enough for a different version of the current SAT (lengthier but split over three days) plus two Subject Tests. The SAT tests ought to be one-time deals at the end of the Junior year. This way ALL the scores should be in before the application process starts in the fall of the senior year. No more rush or December stress to get scores in. If needed, the second week could be used in September. </p>

<p>The AP should be relegated to what is now the current administration of the SAT Subject Tests. </p>

<p>Right now, the world is upside down. We have the PSAT and AP at most high schools. but the SAT is strictly a weekend affair. PSAT and SAT are college admission tests and should be taken during schooldays. AP, being optional, should be the one given on weekend. </p>

<p>The fees of the SAT should also be drastically subsidized by poaching into the substantial revenues generated by other tests and financial aid services. </p>

<p>12-16-2005, 10:04 AM #15<br>
by bluebayou </p>

<p>Posts: 12,588 </p>

<p>while possibly an intriguing idea, CB’s biggest customer is not likely to concur. The UC’s accept scores from only one sitting, and have maintained that policy for almost as long as their Nov 30 app deadline. </p>

<p>I, too, like your idea, but the logistics would be extremely problematic; 1+ million kids take the SAT every year, but thousands less take APs. There are literally thousands of kids in spring sports who are still playing in early May. One of our top golfers last year had to reschedule the AP Euro test three times since he went on to the state tourney. (It obviously worked for him, since he’s now playing for Columbia.)

</p>

[bovertine]

<p>

Hey, no fair, Bovertine! I did not mention my kid’s scores ONCE in the “Sex in Class” thread!

</p>

<p>You are a good sport. You have a right to be proud of your kid’s scores, I was just giving you the business, and was concerned maybe it came off too nasty. Usually, by the time I figure out something I wrote was probably not called for it is too late to edit it, but fortunately you have a sense of humor. </p>

<p>Your kid is at the far right end of the bell curve. I feel fairly certain kids like that are quite capable of deciding how to enrich their studies, and how much introductory classwork they are capable of skipping, so I wouldn’t question them. So really most of the concerns I wrote about on this thread don’t apply to students like him. It’s maybe 400,000 of the other examinees.</p>