Promote legislation to prevent public schools from starting before 8 a.m.

2plus2 · November 7, 2011, 1:39pm

MiamiDAP

It’s not an enforcement issue. You can have the most self disciplined teen ever who FORCES herself to get to bed, turn off everything, but you cannot force your body to fall asleep (again - I’m talking broad swaths of the population, here, not an individual level). It’s like if someone said as a Mom, “I’m going to start serving dinner at 2am, so you better just GET HUNGRY then.” Well no, biologically, you would not be hungry and it has nothing to do with discipline.

Are there exceptions? Of course. But you can’t override basic sleep biology through sheer force of will or I promise you, plenty of people would have figured it out including insomniacs, people with sleep disorders, and shiftworkers.

MiamiDAP · November 7, 2011, 1:45pm

As far as I know, when teenager’s head hits the pillow at any time, teenager goes to sleep. When 60 years hits the pillow, here come the struggle. there is definite difference. However, we are not discussing parents, we are discussing kids here.

emeraldkity4 · November 7, 2011, 1:51pm

I think at the least they should adjust class offerings so that kids who already struggle with math aren’t taking physics at 7:20 am, like my daughter did.
I had early classes in high school, but I always made sure to have PE first period.

( D however had PE waived because she was on a school team, in order to take more academic courses)

eastcoascrazy · November 7, 2011, 1:52pm

By the way, I taught for a number of years in the midwest, in farming communities. You’d better believe that teenagers there have always had to get up before the crack of dawn, because the cows need to be milked at around 4:30, and “Dad” wasn’t out there by himself disinfecting the equipment and running the milking operations by himself. Those teens managed quite well getting up far earlier than any of us are whining about on this board. They put in several hours of chores before getting on the bus to go to school. I know I sound like I taught in the 1800’s but there were still family dairy farms 30 years ago, and people managed to get to bed early, get up early and get to school wide awake and on time.

Possibly, those kids had no trouble falling asleep early because they were physically tired out at the end of the day… something that many of our kids don’t experience.

emeraldkity4 · November 7, 2011, 1:58pm

Possibly, those kids had no trouble falling asleep early because they were physically tired out at the end of the day… something that many of our kids don’t experience.

Possibly but our kids also were on sport teams & the way the fields are set up in our city, the older you are, the later your practice is. Practice might not end till 10 pm, then they are wound up and can’t go to sleep. Additionally the amount of homework that is given adds many hours to their day & I don’t know what the kids do who have jobs.
I worked when I was in high school & since I didn’t have a car, I got home after 10pm. I was awake for morning classes generally, but I always fell asleep in the class after lunch.
:o

MiamiDAP · November 7, 2011, 2:03pm

Another point, they should adjust to any time, period, otherwise they will have hardest time adjusting in college. Believe me college classes will be much more challenging than HS physics. And if a kid struggles with math, it is totally different issue. it has to be addressed outside of early start. It is better to be addressed in HS then later on in college. lack of math background will affect any major. believe it or not my D. has indicated that strong math background has helped her in her Music minor where lots of Music major kids struggle with Music theory. There is no need to struggle with HS math, find real solution to this problem before it surface in college. Starting class at 8am instead of 7:20am will NOT resolve struggle with math.

charlieschm · November 7, 2011, 2:22pm

My public school was faced with huge PA. state budget cuts and the loss of hundreds of teachers. One of the ways they minimized teacher layoffs was to shift the high school start time from 8 to 7:30 am. It was not the greatest option, but it saved $1 million in busing costs a year because the same bus could serve multiple runs and multiple schools, without increased contracted costs per bus.

My daughter’s high school also shifted the schedule so that the first period did not involve the most challenging academic subjects. That provides time for the brain to warm up in the morning.

The downside is that it did increase the number of students arriving late to school.

One size does not fit all.

parent56 · November 7, 2011, 3:02pm

not to be flippant BUT we survived going to school early!! the thread reminds me of an email i got (not that some of these things are good and we have learned over the years but not everything has to be “fixed” or easier. please dont flame me…just food for thought

TO ALL THE KIDS WHO SURVIVED THE
1930’s, 40’s, 50’s, 60’s and 70’s!

First, we survived being born to mothers
Who smoked and/or drank while they were
Pregnant.

They took aspirin, ate blue cheese dressing,
Tuna from a can and didn’t get tested for diabetes.

Then after that trauma, we were put to sleep on our tummies in baby cribs covered with bright colored lead-base paints.

We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles,
Locks on doors or cabinets and when we rode
Our bikes, we had baseball caps not helmets on our heads.

As infants & children,
We would ride in cars with no car seats,
No booster seats, no seat belts, no air bags, bald tires and sometimes no brakes.

Riding in the back of a pick-up truck on a warm day
Was always a special treat.

We drank water
From the garden hose and not from a bottle.

We shared one soft drink with four friends,
From one bottle and no one actually died from this.

We ate cupcakes, white bread, real butter and bacon.
We drank Kool-Aid made with real white sugar.
And, we weren’t overweight.
WHY?

Because we were
Always outside playing…that’s why!

We would leave home in the morning and play all day,
As long as we were back when the
Streetlights came on.

No one was able
To reach us all day. And, we were O.K.

We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps
And then ride them down the hill, only to find out
We forgot the brakes. After running into the bushes
a few times, we learned to solve the problem.

We did not have Playstations, Nintendo’s and X-boxes.
There were no video games, no 150 channels on cable,
No video movies or DVD’s, no surround-sound or CD’s,
No cell phones, No personal computers, no Internet and no chat rooms. WE HAD FRIENDS
And we went outside and found them!

We fell out of trees, got cut, broke bones and teeth
And there were no lawsuits from these accidents.

We ate worms and mud pies made from dirt,
And the worms did not live in us
Forever.

We were given BB guns for our 10th birthdays,
Made up games with sticks and tennis balls and,
Although we were told it would happen,
We did not put out very many eyes.

We rode bikes or walked to a friend’s house and
Knocked on the door or rang the bell, or just
Walked in and talked to them.

Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team.
Those who didn’t had to learn to deal
With disappointment.
Imagine that!!

The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke the law
Was unheard of.
They actually sided with the law!

These generations have produced some of the best
Risk-takers, problem solvers and inventors ever.

The past 50 years
Have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas.
We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility,
and we learned how to deal with it all.

MiamiDAP · November 7, 2011, 3:22pm

^People were stronger precisely for all the reasons that you have mentioned. Some learned quicker, others were gone because they failed. it goes the same as for child who came from abroad without language. Kids who are supported by translators learn much slower or fail to learn, while kids who went and struggle without support system learned very quickly with much shorter “pain” perid. the same idea. the same goes about antibiotics. Too much protection does not work for kids. they need certain amount of experiences to learn how to adjust, which at the end is the most important skill. Kids who had lots of adjustment events end up much stronger and smarter and better prepared for the future.

2plus2 · November 7, 2011, 3:22pm

MiamiDAP

I don’t mean to argue or be snarky, but I’m reminded of the adage “you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.”

There is a plethora of research out there about the biological basis of teens needing more sleep than younger children, getting LESS sleep than younger children, and the biological basis of a phase shift at the onset of adolescence, that, combined with the social basis of kids getting older, getting more freedoms, and later bedtime, leads to less sleep. It’s not exclusively a discipline issue (though it may be for individual kids), and hasn’t been seen that way in the sleep research community for years. Studies have shown you can predict the onset of adulthood, for example, by examining sleep phase patterns. If you remove teens from light triggers and other things that impact our circadian rhythms, you see that teens follow a delayed sleep phase pattern in relation to adults.

Some, but not even close to all, of the information is below.

National Sleep Foundation:
[Backgrounder:</a> Later School Start Times | National Sleep Foundation - Information on Sleep Health and Safety](<a href=“http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/hot-topics/backgrounder-later-school-start-times]Backgrounder:”>How Would Later School Start Times Affect Sleep? | Sleep Foundation)

Findings of the tendency for adolescent sleep patterns to be delayed have been reported not only in North America, but also in South America, Asia, Australia and Europe (Andrade & Menna Barreto, 2002; Carskadon & Acebo, 1997; Ishihara, Honma & Miyake, 1990; Bearpark & Michie, 1987; Strauch & Meier, 1988; LeBourgeois et al., 2005; Thorleifsdottir et al., 2002). The diversity of such research supports the view that intrinsic developmental changes play a role in delayed sleep patterns in adolescents. This biological shift sets the stage for other social and environmental conditions that make it easier for these adolescents to stay awake at night and wake up sleepdeprived. The effects of changing sleep patterns are compounded by the demands older students face in academics, extracurricular activities, social opportunities, after-school jobs, and other obligations.

American Psychological Association Monitor on Pyschology
[Sleep</a> deprivation may be undermining teen health](<a href=“http://www.apa.org/monitor/oct01/sleepteen.aspx]Sleep”>Sleep deprivation may be undermining teen health)

But to researchers’ surprise, in the past two decades studies have shown that teen-agers require considerably more sleep to perform optimally than do younger children or adults. Starting around the beginning of puberty and continuing into their early 20s, Carskadon and colleagues have shown, adolescents need about 9.2 hours of sleep each night, compared with the 7.5 to 8 hours that adults need.

In addition to needing more sleep, adolescents experience a “phase shift” during puberty, falling asleep later at night than do younger children. Researchers long assumed that this shift was driven by psychosocial factors such as social activities, academic pressures, evening jobs and television and Internet use. In the past several years, however, sleep experts have learned that biology also plays a starring role in adolescents’ changing sleep patterns, says Carskadon.

Indeed, Carskadon’s research is greatly responsible for that new understanding. In a pair of groundbreaking studies published in 1993 and 1997, she and colleagues found that more physically mature girls preferred activities later in the day than did less mature girls, and that in more physically mature teens, melatonin production tapered off later than it did in less mature teens. Those findings, Carskadon says, suggest that the brain’s circadian timing system–controlled mainly by melatonin–switches on later at night as pubertal development progresses.

Changes in adolescents’ circadian timing system, combined with external pressures such as the need to awaken early in the morning for school, produce a potentially destructive pattern of early-morning sleepiness in teen-agers, Carskadon argues. In a laboratory study of 40 high-school students published in the journal Sleep (Vol. 21, No. 8) in 1998, she, Wolfson and colleagues examined the effect of changing school starting times from 8:25 a.m. to 7:20 a.m.

Their results were disturbing: Almost half of the students who began school at 7:20 were “pathologically sleepy” at 8:30, falling directly into REM sleep in an average of only 3.4 minutes–a pattern similar to what is seen in patients with narcolepsy.
Those findings, says Carskadon, persuaded her that “these early school start times are just abusive. These kids may be up and at school at 8:30, but I’m convinced their brains are back on the pillow at home.”

Neuropsychology Review. “Changes in Sleep as a Function of Adolescent Development”
[SpringerLink</a> - Neuropsychology Review, Volume 21, Number 1](<a href=“http://www.springerlink.com/content/43u7678n456196k8/]SpringerLink”>http://www.springerlink.com/content/43u7678n456196k8/)

Adolescence is marked by dramatic changes in sleep. Older adolescents go to bed later, have an increased preference for evening activities, and sleep less than younger adolescents. This behavior change is driven by external factors, notably increased pressures from academic, social, and extracurricular activities and by biological circadian factors. There are also substantial changes in sleep architecture across adolescence, with dramatic declines in slow wave sleep, and slow wave activity (delta, ~ 0.54.5 Hz). These changes are associated with underlying changes in brain structure and organization, with a decrease in synaptic density likely underlying the reduction in high amplitude slow waveforms. While changes in sleep across adolescence are a normal part of development, many adolescents are getting insufficient sleep and are consequently, less likely to perform well at school, more likely to develop mood-related disturbances, be obese, and are at greater risk for traffic accidents, alcohol and drug abuse.

Paediatric Respiratory Reviews. “The sleepy adolescent: causes and consequences of sleepiness in teens”
[ScienceDirect</a> - Paediatric Respiratory Reviews : The sleepy adolescent: causes and consequences of sleepiness in teens](<a href=“http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1526054208000031]ScienceDirect”>http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1526054208000031)

The majority of adolescents do not obtain the recommended amount of sleep, resulting in significant daytime sleepiness. For most adolescents, insufficient sleep results from the interaction between intrinsic factors such as puberty and extrinsic factors such as school start times. Insufficient sleep and sleepiness impact all areas of adolescent functioning, including academic, psychological and behavioural, which underscores the importance of evaluating sleepy adolescents. While polysomnography is required for the diagnosis of certain sleep disorders, causes of sleepiness are generally best identified with a detailed sleep history and daily sleep diary. The management of sleep problems in adolescents involves treating any underlying sleep disorders, increasing total sleep time and improving other environmental factors that impact sleep. Recognition and management of insufficient sleep and sleepiness is important for the health and functioning of adolescents.

Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome in Adolescents.
[SpringerLink</a> - Abstract](<a href=“http://www.springerlink.com/content/j57454788146l236/]SpringerLink”>http://www.springerlink.com/content/j57454788146l236/)

Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences. “Regulation of Adolescent Sleep: Implications for Behavior”
[Regulation</a> of Adolescent Sleep: Implications for Behavior - CARSKADON - 2006 - Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences - Wiley Online Library](<a href=“http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1196/annals.1308.032/full]Regulation”>http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1196/annals.1308.032/full)

Adolescent development is accompanied by profound changes in the timing and amounts of sleep and wakefulness. Many aspects of these changes result from altered psychosocial and life-style circumstances that accompany adolescence. The maturation of biological processes regulating sleep/wake systems, however, may be strongly related to the sleep timing and amount during adolescenceeither as compelling or permissive factors. The two-process model of sleep regulation posits a fundamental sleep-wake homeostatic process (process S) working in concert with the circadian biological timing system (process C) as the primary intrinsic regulatory factors. How do these systems change during adolescence? We present data from adolescent participants examining EEG markers of sleep homeostasis to evaluate whether process S shows maturational changes permissive of altered sleep patterns across puberty. Our data indicate that certain aspects of the homeostatic system are unchanged from late childhood to young adulthood, while other features change in a manner that is permissive of later bedtimes in older adolescents. We also show alterations of the circadian timing system indicating a possible circadian substrate for later adolescent sleep timing. The circadian parameters we have assessed include phase, period, melatonin secretory pattern, light sensitivity, and phase relationships, all of which show evidence of changes during pubertal development with potential to alter sleep patterns substantially. However the changes are mediatedwhether through process S, process C, or by a combinationmany adolescents have too little sleep at the wrong circadian phase. This pattern is associated with increased risks for excessive sleepiness, difficulty with mood regulation, impaired academic performance, learning difficulties, school tardiness and absenteeism, and accidents and injuries.

I can keep going but the literature is not divided on this issue. There are psychological and biological factors that keep kids up late - it isn’t just self or parental discipline.

Are there things you have personal responsibility over which can impact your sleep? Sure! Exposing yourself to the light of computer screens, drinking coffee or soda late at night, eating late, etc etc all have an impact on how much sleep you’re getting. But there is a HUGE biological basis for why teens stay up late and that biological basis doesn’t go away, even if you remove all the external factors. It’s as much biology as getting hungry in the middle of the day is biology.

Kids today should have to do it because adults used to have to do it, before we understood as much as we do about circadian physiology, is ridiculous. People used to think bologna and mayo on white bread with a glass of whole milk was a healthy lunch too.

emeraldkity4 · November 7, 2011, 3:24pm

parent56 I dropped out of high school- while I might count as having " survived" I certainly wouldn’t say I " thrived".

Parents nowadays want their kids to excel, don’t you?

megpmom · November 7, 2011, 3:33pm

As a parent whose child’s HS doesn’t start until 9am, I really don’t have a dog in this fight, but it seems to me silly to justify the early start times in the face of all of the research to the contrary. Teenagers, the majority of the research shows, function more optimally if allowed to sleep in later in the mornings. It seems like most of the arguments on this thread arguing for earlier start times are merely saying “It was good enough for me/more convenient for me/it’s the way we’ve always done it.”

Given all the arguing and vehemence displayed on this thread alone, I repeat my original statement. I believe in local control of things like start times. If a community values the early start, by all means, let them keep it. If, like my community, you would rather have a schedule that reflects current research on the topic, then go ahead and change. Local control is best for issues such as start times, grading policies, uniform/dress codes, etc.

barrons · November 7, 2011, 3:35pm

This should be done and is a no-brainer as far as the science is concerned. The fact that it might be inconvenient to some or cost money is another issue all together. I am all for it when possible.

parent56 · November 7, 2011, 3:35pm

emerald…of course… but i just think sometimes we overthink things to make it easier…my two oldest hated getting up in the morning but they did it and stayed awake during class…my youngest falls asleep in class but he wont sleep at night…never has… if school started later, he would just stay up later! 
and the email was not necessarily what i believe… just a thought

earthmother · November 7, 2011, 4:17pm

Thank you, 2plus2, for the excellent citations. Another great “one stop shop” for research (as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread–I think!) is at [The</a> Impact of School Start Times on Adolescent Health and Academic Performance](<a href=“http://schoolstarttime.org/]The”>http://schoolstarttime.org/). There you’ll find more than you ever wanted to know about the history of this issue, the research, the many attempts to resolve it over the decades, and why it seems to stir up this level of controversy, even among well-meaning people every one of whom wants the best for their kids and their communities.

eastcoascrazy · November 7, 2011, 4:27pm

Posts 30, 34, and 40. Please, anyone, tell me your solution to this real world situation. One that works within the constraints of our real world economy. Please don’t say, “Well, of course we should shift times, condense times, adjust our school days for teens. Costs be damned, and call in Tim Gunn to make it work.”. Please tell me how you would make this work for my school district, in a realistic way.

I truly would like you to share your ideas with me, and stop throwing out evidence of circadian rhythms and it’s effects on teens. Let’s agree that it exists, and that a pre8AM start time is less than ideal. Tell me how you would adjust my district’s schedules without blowing our budget or cutting services… Or which services and extra curricular activities you would cut. And how would you suggest we handle sports, extra curricular activities, and even the county parks and rec department that runs after school sports, arts, etc. programs for all school age children. I’m trying to point out the interconnectedness of EVERYTHING in our children’s lives, and how seemingly straightforward idea for change has a rippling, domino effect.

Those of you who think that the mission of our public schools should not take sports and extracurricular activities into account in making these decisions, please explain to me how you reconcile this with encouraging our children to be well rounded, to explore and join extracurricular clubs, music, or sports. When and how would you envision these activities taking place?

cap · November 7, 2011, 4:28pm

(However, for some suggestions about how the bus issue might be resolved in a large county that currently starts at 7:20 a.m., check out this website, put together by an advocacy group in Fairfax County, VA: Frequently Asked Questions - SLEEP: Start Later for Excellence in Education Proposal ; this group has been working to change start times since 2004, to no avail, and despite an online petition with well over 9000 signatures). >>

Having part of this school system, I didn’t know a single person (student or parent) who was in favor of changing the times. There are more than 175K students in the system, so 9000 signatures, which would include those of non-parents/non-residents isn’t really all that significant.

cap · November 7, 2011, 4:29pm

The federal government already mandates that school lunch be served between 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. Local schools work out the details, but this just prevents abuse and lets schools do what’s in the kids’ best interests when they work out the details rather than succumbing to other interests.>>

Yet there are districts that do not have set lunchtimes. If you want lunch, you use a class period, and it may or may not be before 10am. Virginia Beach is one example.

parentoftwo · November 7, 2011, 5:01pm

I often wonder if children have less problems getting to bed at a decent hour in the central time zone as opposed to the eastern time zone, since all the prime time television shows are over an hour earlier and bedtime (or in older teenagers the rush to complete homework) often occurs after the “good shows” are over. Having moved west, I really enjoy that prime time is over an hour earlier than in the east.

parentoftwo · November 7, 2011, 5:16pm

Another thought - I remember that when my children were in high school, there was a fad of having nap clubs for high schoolers. Although our local schools did not participate, my D usually took an afternoon or after dinner nap before she started her hours of homework. I could never do that during school myself - I never had the self discipline to actually get up from a late nap!!

Promote legislation to prevent public schools from starting before 8 a.m.

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