property line/fence issue

Parent Cafe
41

How do you know? It could take the developer years to deal with it. There could be other title issues that cause delays like financing, other survey disputes, permits. I’ve worked on projects that were scheduled for 2 years and ended up taking 10 to develop all phases. Plats take forever to get approved in some counties. Train right-of-ways show up on surveys. EPA issues.

It doesn’t really matter as the OP said she’s not interested in the extra property. If the fence isn’t on her property, how can it be her responsibility to remove it? She didn’t put it up, she didn’t buy it when she bought the property if it isn’t on her deed (if it is on the deed, then the survey is wrong). If the developer admits that it is her fence, then he’s admitting that the property can be subject to an adverse possession claim. He won’t want that claim.

42

POA usually means power of attorney. How are you using the acronym here?

43

POA = Property Owners Association maybe?

44

@jym626 I think it’s Property Owners Association.

45

Ah. Here it is HOA (Homeowners Association)

46

I don’t know how the developer can enforce them to pay any bill that he might send them. Sure, he can send a bill, but what will enforce it?

What if @atomom finds out that their previous owner wrongly put fences up on 10 different properties sprinkled all over the city. Is she somehow liable because she bought a property from him? Does buying one property from an owner make one liable for any wrongdoings this previous owner did on other properties? What if the previous owner had left an old car on one of those other properties? Is she liable to remove the car? What if the previous owner planted trees on 10 other properties around town, is the OP required to remove those? Does buying a home from someone mean that you’re assuming responsibility for anything the previous owner did on other properties? I don’t think so.

Last Friday, we opened a bill for a termite treatment. The envelope said, “Current Owner,” but inside the bill had the name of the previous owner. The bill was for a treatment that supposedly happened 3 months ago. We’ve owned this property for about 18 months. First of all, we never saw any indication that our property was treated 3 months ago…no one came to the door, no one left any indication on the front door, our gates to the backyard are locked.

We doubt that any treatment happened, anyway.

The bill appears to be the result of some annual contract the previous owners had with this company, and that owner never contacted the company when he sold the property.

When their office office opens this morning, I’m going to call them. I have no intention of paying for a treatment that I never authorized, they have no contract with us, and especially since there never was any indication that any treatment occurred.

Obviously, they changed their billing envelopes to “Current Owner”, because writing the previous owner’s name was getting those bills forwarded to that person’s new address.

Anyway, the termite company can’t force us to pay for a treatment that we never authorized.

Anyway, as the OP states, this is a stand-alone fence. It doesn’t connect with anything on her property which could somehow be construed as being assumed to be “her fence”.

@atomom Do you know if a permit was pulled to put that fence up? If there wasn’t one, then I’m not sure how the developer can even state that the previous owner of your property put that fence up?

47

I don’t think you need a lawyer if you think their survey is correct. It’s their fence. It never was your fence. You could get a new survey or find out if there is a survey of your property that has that fence located on it. Around here the title companies always have a survey.

48

Don’t let the developer intimidate you. A thorough letter claiming adverse possession, a mention of a possible legal action, and the developer may well pay for your new fence, if you don’t want the strip of land it sits on.

49

I am curious- do you want the fence? If you do, you could probably ask the developer for it in exchange for moving it. If you don’t want it, then I agree with the people saying that the fence is the developer’s problem. You either own the land with the fence or you don’t. I would just tell the developer that it is not my fence, not my problem.

50

Did you purchase title insurance when you purchased your property? If so I’d give them a call and have them deal with it.

51

OP mentioned there is a creek behind her house by rear of property. Sometimes a boundary shown on a survey of a waterfront property is not a specific line with corners and all, but rather a ‘mean high water level’ which can be a little difficult to pinpoint…the field being developed by developer on far side of fence could actually be a dried up lake above the ‘mean high water level’ on OP’s side meaning he could be trying to develop OP’s property and not what he thinks is his! New current survey would clear this up.

52

As a lawyer, I’d say:

  1. First step is look at your deed. It says something about what you bought. It may reference a plan (like lot 4 on plan xyz dated blank or some specific subdivision plan) or it may have marker references (like 180’ from found marker). If there’s a plan referenced, it’s on file somewhere and you can go look at it. Either the local “registry of deeds” or “clerk’s office” or “property records” office or whatever your state calls these things. And it may be viewable on line. All these records are searchable by your name as owner, by your name as “grantee” and by the seller as “grantor”.

  2. A plan will show you if, for example, your lot has the same back line as your neighbors. If so and if any of these have had surveys, you have an answer. If not, you may also have an answer. One reason for checking the plan is that a surveyor will work off a plan too - that’s their primary source to start with - and who knows, maybe they started with the wrong plan. That happens.

  3. The fence isn’t yours if it’s on his land. I think the guy was told it was “your fence” so he told you to move it. But it isn’t really your fence unless you paid for it specifically and it doesn’t sound like you did. It’s more like when you see a nice looking tree on the land behind a house you might buy: it’s part of the view but not yours unless you buy specific rights to it.

53

Well, some cities do have view protection laws and there are some trees that are protected and one cannot cut them down, in California, for example, redwoods and certain oaks.

54

I do want to add that even good surveyors sometimes make mistakes. One of the first additions I worked on, we originally thought would be too close to the property line to be possible until we realized that somehow the surveyor had made the property 10 feet less wide than it actually was!

55

Surveyors love to bad mouth other surveyors in same town…talk to a surveyor and they’ll make it sound like everyone’s house in town is on the wrong property.

56

To answer your questions, by POA, I did mean Property Owners Association. Yes, I did call about permits-- County records office could not find any record of a fence permit.

I do want to have a fence in the back of my property, which is why I was ready to move this one. I prefer not to have my yard open to construction site. I still have a couple younger kids at home. But I prefer not to spend 2K or more on it, even if the developer “gives me permission to move his fence.” I could wait to see if they take it down, (guessing it won’t be too soon because of the tree issue). I think the developer will want to take it down eventually–I think the lot would be less desirable if you tell a prospective buyer, “Your lot line is HERE, and over here, 3 ft. inside your property line, we’ll sweeten the deal by throwing in this free (old and not so great looking) fence.” The developer told me he wants the fence gone so buyers know/can easily see what they are buying.

Fence company said that the builder must put up one of those orange plastic mesh/safety fences during the construction process. That would block access to my yard, but is ugly and wouldn’t provide privacy.

Another issue is that there is a gate on this fence which opens to school property. But now I see that my actual yard only borders school property at one point. If I put a fence straight across my property line, and put a gate in it, it would then open into the other yard. So it looks like kids from this street will lose access to the school property.

57

Too late to edit–fwiw, there is a creek-like drainage area by/behind the fence. Not at all waterfront. (The thought of that makes me smile. . .) Not considered a flood risk area at all–a couple of inches of water, at the most, may run through during heavy rains a few times a year, or not at all for several years. So the area is generally dry.
I looked up my mortgage papers. RE: Title insurance-- found this on the “exceptions” (meaning “not covered/not included in title insurance”?) “Any encroachment, encumbrance, violation, variation, or adverse circumstance affecting the Title that would be disclosed by an accurate and complete land survey of the Land.” This, along with the rest of the list of “exceptions,” pretty much means that any question or problem that could come up would not be included.

Also, I notice in the appraisal for refinance that no fence is listed, and that value (5K) is deducted from total value of my property against the comparable properties which had “other amenities” listed–including fences and sprinkler systems. Mine says “none” in that spot.

58

The gate actually raises a legal issue: is there an easement to the school? My guess is no, given what you’ve said but I’d check: a) my deed, b) my title insurance (which may benefit only your lender but which you should have a copy of in your closing package) and c) ask the POA about this path to the school. Has it been there “forever”? “Forever”, meaning 20 years or whatever for “adverse possession” can create an easement. The usual remark about iffy cases is: shut it off because you don’t want to create easements across your land.

59

You could go online to the county tax assessor’s site. Look up the real property tax database and search for your name or address. There should be a link somewhere that shows your whole street or block and gives approximate property lines and dimensions. It would at least indicate if your property line is continuous with your neighbors.

60

I didn’t read the whole thread, but could it be possible that the fence is on a property easement?

If you are pro-active, perhaps fence will remain w/o cost and hassle.

There was a guy in our next neighborhood who put the wood fence literally inches in from the curb (not a ‘normal’ thing to do) but he wanted to maximize the area in his back yard. If you park next to his fence, you cannot open the car door at the curb. I called our city council person, and he didn’t break any ‘rules’. If a sidewalk would be required, most likely it would be on the other side of the street - however some places require sidewalk on all, and new construction in our town requires sidewalks to be put in when you build. He just sold his house, so it will be interesting to see if new owners keep the fence as is (hasn’t been stained, so is getting old looking) or eventually replaces and changes location of the fence.