Consult a surveyor before consulting an attorney! It shouldn’t cost more than a few hundred dollars for a survey, so just settle the issue!
Borrow a metal detector to try to find the buried property markers. Cost = $0
You could make a free call to a survey company to see if there are buried property markers in your area. Also could explain your situation and see what a survey would cost and what their experience is in your area.
Gain a little more information. However tell the developer not to touch the fence until the remedy is determined/property lines verified.
Surveys in our neck of the woods rarely cost only a few hundred. Generally at least $700 for 1/8 acre plots and up from there.
I worked as a survey technician one summer when I was in college, helping surveyors setup/tear-down equipment and locate property boundaries (granted, I worked with the US Forest Service). We would often get assignments to verify property boundaries between private land and forest land. Not surprisingly, we found property lines to be off as much as a few feet off in some cases, but most were within centimeters or millimeters. Even benchmarks, which are supposed to be, well, benchmarks, can be off by a few inches, especially older ones.
Moral of the story is that depending on the date of original survey (older equipment, poorer accuracy), and skill level of the surveyor, accuracy could very well be an issue.
My gut tells me though that the survey line in your case is probably accurate. If you can afford it, it’s probably not a bad idea to get it resurveyed for a second opinion.
Can’t rely on buried steel stakes or concrete monuments etc. determining property boundaries…people move stuff, ground shifts, original surveyor may have been off or given wrong legal description to work with. Only new current survey can be relied on.
I agree it will be cheaper to get a survey, than an attorney.
When our neighbor was redoing his garage, I suspected it was on our property line, as he did not have a survey done.
He does have an easement to share our driveway, in order to access his garage, but I wasn’t going to allow him to build on our land, so I had our own survey done, and he was forced to have it torn down and start over, but that could have been avoided if he had done a survey first.
fwiw, it is a wooden fence/shadowbox style. No record of who put it up. It is in OK shape–older than 7 years because it was here when I moved here. A couple panels might need to be replaced. I’ve gone over it all in detail with the person doing the estimate. The estimate to move the fence–including all new posts-- is almost 2K.
But 4.5K for a completely new fence. I don’t have 4.5K for this right now. I don’t even want to spend 2K on it. But it is almost worth 2K to be done with it and not have my yard exposed/open to construction site for an unknown time (probably years). For multiple reasons I feel confident that their survey (done a couple months ago) is correct. Everything lines up here–except this fence. I have all the measurements, drawings, photos, plat maps, etc.
So I called to schedule the move. They are booked up for several weeks. Equipment is right behind the fence at the moment. We’ll see what happens. . .
Are you 100% sure the fence is not on your property? Maybe contact developer and say what the fence costs to move - rather than challenge their survey maybe they will split the cost of moving the fence?
It doesn’t hurt to call/negotiate.
About surveys. In many parts of the countries, particularly ones with new development, there really aren’t specific markers for each property but rather plat maps or the equivalent that are approved and filed. These show the overall site with specifics and then label lots, often by lot or tract number only. The lot dimensions aren’t guaranteed and can be confirmed by a specific survey but the marker for that is often, even generally not on the property and sometimes is nowhere near it. Deeds are acceptable which reference the filed map because you get whatever that lot is, whether it’s depicted exactly right on the survey or not.
In a weird case, it’s possible for surveys to be right but wrong. Let’s say for example this person has a lot next to a new subdivision being developed. His deed may say x and the survey confirms it, but the subdivision map may also say x and their survey confirms it … because both may only look at their own title and the discrepancy may only be found by tracing not only the owner’s title chain but abutters chain of title too. Thus doing a complete survey can become expensive. In my case, for example, to make a change to registered land (in MA - see prior post about this), you need to provide a huge map that locates the registered land in an area. That involves a lot of extra time and thus costs multiples.
I just talked to my real estate neighbor, to tell her what I decided. I noticed when I first talked to her last week she was being a little “weird” about it–helpful, but, not saying too much about what she might remember. It occurs to me now that she was the sellers agent when we bought the house (we had our own agent, too.) I wonder if she knew that the fence was wrong–even years before she sold the house. If so, I wonder if she’s feeling a little guilty that I have to pay for this now. I have a funny feeling she knows this is in the back of my mind, and she’s uneasy about it. OTOH, I could be reading her wrong. I’m never gonna bring it up, though.
You are probably right about your neighbor, but I would guess it’s not “guilt” she is feeling. More likely, “fear” or “discomfort” that she may be legally liable for not disclosing that information.
If the fence really isn’t on your property then I would think you should get something in writing from the developer saying that it is ok for you to move the fence. Plus I would think the fence company would need it since they are going to be on his property and doing the moving…
What’s being developed behind house…single family homes, warehouse, shopping center, office park? Maybe at this stage of development you could get local regulators and developer to put up a new attractive fence or at least a landscaped buffer at developer’s expense so you don’t have to look at new development placed behind your property. Make sure developer doesn’t put up a crappy looking chain link fence to keep kids from drowning in the creek behind your place.
How old is your house? Was it there before the neighborhood was developed and the plat filed? Is your legal description Lot and Block or metes and bounds? All of this will matter as to how accurate the legal description is. The more you’ve described it, the more I think it is your property and the developer is just taking it. At the very least, there is an established easement on the property for the school children to use it. Easements don’t take as long to establish as adverse possession.
NJres, your situation of the fence being off by 3’ is exactly why adverse possession laws exist. Your neighbor is openly and hostilely ‘taking’ your property. You know it, he knows it, that’s how it works. You should send him a letter stating you know his fence is 3’ onto your property and you grant him permission to use and care for YOUR property until you say otherwise. State that you are not creating an easement, not ceding the property to him, but for mutual convenience are allowing him to use your property. This will protect you when you sell it and the next homeowner wants his 3’ back.
Single family homes are going in–slightly more upscale than my subdivision. Real estate neighbor says this will help our property values. The process is painful, though. We lost our buffer when they tore the hill down. Used to be a big field where kids could fly kites, sled on the hill, etc. Already endured 1.5 years of noise and dust when they built an apartment complex farther out in that field. Now it has been quiet for a year or two since that was finished. This time is worse as the hill is gone and that means more dust/noise and I have to see it all happening just a few feet away.
It will probably be up to individual owners (as it is in our neighborhood) whether to fence their yards–some are fenced, some not.
Well, I learned a couple things–unless you love noise and dust, never buy a house next to undeveloped property in a suburban area–it will eventually get developed. And always get a survey/double check measurements/plat maps/fences before buying property.
^My brother bought an older house on a dead end road. Across the street was all woods, but they knew it was ripe for development. New houses wouldn’t have been so bad, but my goodness they put up the cheesiest manufactured housing you can imagine and one of the new neighbors went and bought an ATV which the kids ran around with at all hours. They did eventually come to an understanding, but their house was so much nicer before.
Developer called today, just to check on how soon I will be moving that fence. I told him that I had gotten an estimate and was waiting for the job to be scheduled. But this company is booked up and it could be a few weeks. I asked if I needed written permission from him as the property owner to enter his property and remove his fence–he said no, we have spoken about it, and we agree on what is going to be done, he knows the fence company workers will be on his property. He is just itching to sell that lot with no encroachments. . .
I understand that you want a fence and a new one is way out of your budget but: 1. a wood fence of the age you state may not survive the move without expensive repalacement boards and posts. 2. I don’t know a fence company that would go onto someone elses property and move a fence that did not belong to you. 3. Not your fence, not your responsibilty to move it. The developer is afraid that you are going for adverse posession, even though you are not, he has more invested in this than you do, don’t make it easier for him. Tell him after consulting with a land use attorney, you have decided not to move the fence since it is not yours and you will make no claim to the property, see if he will make a good will gesture with some plantings or landscape.
Call the developer back and ask him to send you a letter or email verifying what you spoke about, just for your peace of mind and the fence movers’ CYA.