<p>I think the anti-drinking agenda folks came up with the def. of “binge-drinking” and it is grossly exaggerated. A night out at a lively college might start around 7-8 pm with a couple of pre-function ****tails in the room/apt./house. Hit the clubs at 10 pm and have 1 drink per hour until close at 2am–boom–that’s a binge when you might not have more than a slight buzz all night. Certainly some kids overdo it and at the big schools you sure don’t need to belong to a frat to go out have a large selection of bars and parties to attend. I know Wisconsin has had many more kids killed in nondrinking traffic accidents, plane crashes, bike accidents, drowning, and a host of other accidents than by drinking. And we all know that UW has lots of drinking.</p>
<p>I’ve said all I needed to say on this subject. Before stepping out of this discussions, I would however, leave a couple of links that helped formulate some of my thoughts. </p>
<ol>
<li><p><a href=“404 Not Found | 9news.com”>404 Not Found | 9news.com; - </p></li>
<li><p><a href=“404 Not Found | 9news.com”>404 Not Found | 9news.com;
</ol>
<p>The first two show how little attention the deaths seem to garner in the communities where they happen. Unbelievable as it sounds, there have been more students’ deaths in Colorado. </p>
<ol>
<li><a href=“http://forums.greekchat.com/gcforums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=30[/url]”>Risk Management - Hazing & etc. - GreekChat.com Forums;
</ol>
<p>The third link is a link to the forums at greekchat.com. The discussions on Risk Management and Hazing are particularly interesting. One glaring fact: the rapid escalation of the reported incidents. It might be worthwhile to just check the copied/paste list and see the changes between 2003-2004 and the prior years. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And with this, I am done.</p>
<p>I partly agree with Barron–people seem to be basing binge drinking only on how many drinks a week are consumed, and not how quickly they are consumed. Carolyn’s stats show us that the fraternity leaders reported the highest incidences of binge drinking and drank an average of 14 drinks a week. To put that in perspective, 14 drinks is about two games of beer pong. Those games go on for a while, so he wouldn’t be consuming the 14 drinks that quickly. Lets say he played one game of beer pong on Friday, and one on Saturday. According to the stats and opinions posted on this thread, that would make him a binge drinker. He’s not raising his BAC to a dangerous level, and that amount of partying still gives him ample time to be involved in extra curriculars and study. And the other statistics reported were lower than that…I think it was an average of six drinks a week for a sorority girl. So if the sorority girl partied for two nights a week, three hours each night, she would be consuming three drinks each night, and one per hour. I personally wouldn’t consider either case binge drinking. </p>
<p>I do not mean to say that binge drinking isn’t a serious issue and doesn’t go on–I’m just not sure that study reflects it accurately (although the statistics are interesting).</p>
<p>Thanks Xiggi. Your post has demonstrated that drinking is a severe problem on campus, both in frats and outside of them - 21st birthdays, lacross club initiations, etc. One student is cites as having brought her own alcohol TO the sorority party (is the sorority to blame for that, too?). Obviously, this problem is bigger than greek life.</p>
<p>Momsdream, please check your email. Trinity </p>
<p>I posted before Xiggi’s post showed up on my page. These deaths are tragic and shocking, and i am very, very sorry for you friend. But it leads us back into the “personal accountability vs. responsibility of Greek system” disagreement…I think the individual is responsible for her actions, and you feel the Greek system has the brunt of the blame. I went into further detail about my reasons on pages 2 and 4.</p>
<p>Other individuals, or Greek houses can share part of the responsibility for the deaths, but again, I don’t think it means the entire Greek system is at fault.</p>
<p>If you are worried about your drinking student’s future alcoholic potential–don’t worry–it’s just a phase.</p>
<p><a href=“http://pace.uhs.wisc.edu/docs/jach_brower.pdf[/url]”>http://pace.uhs.wisc.edu/docs/jach_brower.pdf</a></p>
<p><<i just=“” browsed=“” some=“” of=“” the=“” websites=“” frats=“” on=“” penn’s=“” campus.=“” had=“” a=“” clear=“” outline=“” their=“” 2004=“” activities,=“” accomplishments,=“” pictures=“” events,=“” etc…you=“”>></i></p><i just=“” browsed=“” some=“” of=“” the=“” websites=“” frats=“” on=“” penn’s=“” campus.=“” had=“” a=“” clear=“” outline=“” their=“” 2004=“” activities,=“” accomplishments,=“” pictures=“” events,=“” etc…you=“”>
<p>Momsdream, Did the same pages also clearly indicate what pledges would be asked to do during hazing? Did they talk about their rules and regulations regarding problem situations at parties and how they would be handled? Did they share their regulations regarding alcohol, rape, excluding minorities? See, that’s the problem. How many 18 and 19 year olds, anxious to “fit in” are going to ask the right questions? </p>
<p>Kelsey, yes, personal responsibility is the key. Which is why I agree with Jamimom that I would be much more impressed with frats/sororities who took responsibilty for protecting their member’s safety by instituting and acting upon rules and regulations that insure alcohol and drugs are not used - or at the very least, used responsibly - on their premises and in their activities. </p>
<p>Barrons, I am sorry that you do not see binge drinking on college campuses as a dangerous problem. Of course, This isnt something limited to fraternities or sororities, as Xiggi’s list shows. I did my share of binge drinking in college and I can speak from experience when I say that (1) it can and does lead to problem drinking in later life, even alcoholism - it is not always “just a phase” and (2) it can and does open the door to immediate danger of injury, fights, and taking risks (3) when I binged in college the legal drinking age was 18, it is now 21 — most college students are not legally able to drink. </p>
<p>Finally, Jamimom and Xiggi, I think it is interesting that we are the only people here agreeing that frats and sororities could play a real “community service” role by speaking out and ACTING out against excessive drinking, or even just underage drinking. But, interestingly, none of those who have spoken of the positives of the Greek system (and I do agree there are some positives), has joined our chorus. I was particularly saddened to read the stories about the frats at Colorado who are fighting against a proposed alcohol ban in their houses after the death of Gordie Bailey. Like Jamimom says, if frats are really such warm and friendly places why do they NEED booze? Of course, the reply is probably the tired old saw that every college student drinks.</p>
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<p>They don’t NEED it, they think it is fun to drink it. And as long as it’s not abused, I agree. I don’t see why frats with no record of dangerous drinking activity should have to ban alcohol from their organization and make a point of doing so, or feel obligated to, just because a few houses did abuse it. I can see why parents might like it to happen, and i understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t think college students will be instigating a prohibition on their campuses and in their Greek houses any time soon.</p>
<p>Sorry, I posted simultaneously with your edit.</p>
<p>Well, for one thing, it’s against the law to drink if you are under 21. If frats studiously enforce the law on their property, then I guess I would have to agree with you Kelsey.</p>
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<p>The only way to really deal with alchohol abuse on campus is for the students to become responsible for self-policing – i.e. a campus culture where it is not cool do “drink 'til you puke”.</p>
<p>A big problem is that colleges and student leaders are not holding students responsible for their actions. For example, when a frat (or a lacross team or a knitting club) screws up, the group should be disbanded. Not suspended for a semester, but disbanded permanently. It would not take long for either:</p>
<p>a) all of the offending organizations to be gone</p>
<p>b) leaders of remaining organizations to understand the self-interest in responsible behavior</p>
<p>The whole fraternity issue will resolve itself in fairly short order. The weight of lawsuits against chapters, colleges, and individual frat members will probably bring the Greek system down in the next ten years.</p>
<p>Xiggi, I forwarded your last post to my son. I hope it makes him think. I’m sure each of those kids thought they could handle the alcohol, and that they wouldn’t have any problems. So sad.</p>
<p>Thumper1 you posted what I also thought. It is so sad and very scary. </p>
<p>Xiggi, thanks for your posts-am bringing up the subject again with son. </p>
<p>My co-worker and good friend’s son join his frat as a freshman. He is now a 3rd yr soph. There was a parent meeting about all the great academics, community service and alcohol awareness. We haven’t seen much-the kid got an award for most improvement-he got 2 B’s in the classes he had to repeat, no one shows up for the Community Service projects, and alcohol -well his mom was telling me she wished her dad hadn’t left beer at her house from Christmas. Mom said she didn’t feel good about the 3 empty cans she found this morning-didn’t think late night snack for 20 yo required 3 beers. All this could happen w/o frat, it’s just that his frat friends aren’t what we would want for our kids. Maybe water finds it’s level but we had hoped that he had a higher level to be around.</p>
<p>Son has shown interest in a music frat-non greek at his school- but musicians are not monks so who knows.</p>
<p>Carolyn,
I whole heartedly agree with the idea that sororities and fraternities could do a great service in speaking out and acting out against excessive drinking. I’m late to the thread and not really interested in getting too caught up in it since I can tell many of those against Greeks have firmly entrenched beliefs. I’m just trying to present an alternate view from someone who lived in a sorority for four years and held leadership positions. </p>
<p>Barron makes some good points about college drinking and I do think it is unfair to focus so much of the blame on the Greek system. Alcoholism has much deeper roots than binge drinking which suggests to me that someone with a tendency for it will find a way no matter what. I did my fair shair of binge drinking in college as well at a time when it was legal and I did not turn into an alcoholic. I actually learned that I couldn’t drink on a school night and do well in class the next day. I also learned that I really did not like drinking so much that I was sick the next day. In other words I learned my limits and I learned to drink socially. In my four years in a sorority I never knew anyone that was killed or died due to alcohol and I never knew anyone or heard of anyone that was raped by a frat boy. I went to a large midwestern public with a large greek system. That doesn’t discount the tragedy of Xiggi’s friend or those on his list. It only says that it is not the ONLY story.</p>
<p>If you actually go to Xiggi’s greekchat site you will find members of frats and sororities discussing this issue. Scroll beyond the list and you will find members who sound responsible and concerned.</p>
<p>Lizshup, thank you for your posts. I feel like many anti-Greek parents insist on unfairly demonizing the entire Greek system. I acknowledge that bad things do go on in frats. There are Greek scenes on a lot of campuses, Greek scenes attract partiers of all kinds, and some of them aren’t responsible. My sister went to St. John’s College in New Mexico, where there was no frat scene, and they have one of the heaviest drinking scenes in the country (which she did not partake in). Irresponsible behavior and drinking deaths have occurred outside of the Greek system. Because drinking deaths occur within the Greek system doesn’t necessarily mean they are caused by the Greek system–merely individual people within it. It’s unfortunate that intelligent parents, who condemn stereotypes and blanket generalizations about other topics, will resort using them.</p>
<p>Interesteddad, I think it would be very sad (and unlikely) if the entire Greek system were brought down in ten years. </p>
<p>Carolyn, in response to your comment that you would agree with me if those frats enforced the legal drinking age–not even the college administration expects the legal drinking age to be enforced. When they send out housing applications, why do they ask freshmen whether or not they want substance-free housing, since 99.99% of freshmen are underage? Because they know, and expect, most of the freshmen will drink. Which is why the majority of housing offered is not substance free. Its a lot ask for fraternities to enforce that rule when even housing offered by the college administration does not. But I agree that it would be a good thing if some Greek houses took strong stances against excessive drinking. Making sure people are safe and responsible is the most important thing.</p>
<p>I think another thing that prospective rushers have to take into account is their type of social personality. I, for instance, am definitely not rushing a fraternity because I HATE large groups of people. I despise parties, not because I consider them “below me” or “heathen”…I hate them because I’m extremely uncomfortable around large groups of people.</p>
<p>And I feel that I’ll be more likely to meet people who are like-minded in this way if I try to do other EC activities closer to my heart. It’s simply a waste of my time to rush a fraternity because I don’t ENJOY doing what they do. I plan on joining things like Anime Club, Filmmaking Club, and Engineering Club because I’ll find like-minded people there. I’ll probably do an IM Ultimate Frisbee League to blow off steam.</p>
<p>So social personality is another consideration in this whole process.</p>
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<p>Sororities will probably survive at some level. They seem to have done a far better job at risk manangement and contributing something to campus life.</p>
<p>However, the decline of the fraternity system is nothing new. It’s an anachronism that is headed the way of the all-male college and the sock hop. Note that a substantial number of the country’s top colleges and universities dumped the Greek system decades ago. The pressure to keep fraternities has come from alumni groups. However, the percentage of “Greeks” has been declining for more than thirty years, so there may not be as much alumni pressure as there used to be.</p>
<p>The trend in US higher education has been towards increased inclusiveness, not continued exclusionary organizations.</p>
<p>To be perfectly honest, I’m not sure how much longer top colleges will even bother trying to enroll close to 50% men. It already takes a degree of “affirmative action” in the form of lowered selectivity for male students. If they just want to attend college to “party”, the schools could very well just say, “screw it”.</p>
<p>I don’t think most memebrs of fraternities attend college JUST to party, and not all Greek scenes are exclusive, as I elaborated on in my post on page 2. People mentioned the Animal House stereotype a few times…I go to the school that movie was based on, and I’ve found the Greek scene to be a very positive part of campus life. So even the stereotyped don’t always necessarily fit the stereotype. 
There are no lists to get in, and I’ve only seen brothers ask people to leave the house who are exceptionally drunk or making some kind of scene. I’ve found they are very vigilant when it comes to liability issues, and do a good job of self-monitoring the parties. It is true that some don’t contribute as much in the way of community service as sororities, but–especially at more isolated colleges–they do contribute to the social scene. And not just drinking…they host improv comedy shows in their houses, a capella performances, put up the money for bands and DJs, plan themed parties and even decorate for them. I don’t find that anachronistic, and while the administration does like to tie them up in lots of restrictions, I don’t think it’s interested in shutting them down entirely. It would create more problems than it would eliminate.</p>