Pros & Cons-Undergrad Only School vs UG + Grad School

Parents Forum
21

If the school has a Graduate School in addition to UG School, then it is going to have University level funding and probably be a larger campus (total enrollment and land area). This all comes with a bigger name, more research and labs, possibly more accomplished professors, and likely larger class sizes.

If it is just an Undergraduate College, then you are going to have a smaller campus(total enrollment and maybe land area) and probably less total funding than a University. This also means smaller class sizes, greater focus on undergraduate curriculum, and possibly a more personalized advisement staff and administration.

The University will give you the opportunity to go to a big name school, learn under stellar professors, and have a large variety of labs and resources on campus (Say, if you want to do undergraduate research). You might also get a better alumni network from a large university. Now, I’m not saying you absolutely cannot get this at an institution for undergraduates only, but chances are you won’t. At the end of the day, you will definitely need to look at the individual institution for a better perspective. Hope this helps!

22

Ditto on the great TA experience- and some are as bad as some professors. Research is not a competition between undergrads and grad students- opportunities will be different for each level. Being able to do research in grad labs, take grad level courses was a reality for Honors students at UW (then and now). Seeing what is done by grad students can be a look at one’s future.

Schools without grad students will have professors who do not have grad students invigorating them. Also- consider how many adjunct professors could be teaching classes at undergrad only schools. Post # 18 is great.

I also suspect schools with grad programs, especially not just masters, will attract more higher caliber students. Some of the elite colleges will have top students but they won’t get to interact with students a step ahead of them. I also favor larger schools because they can offer a more diverse course selection.

23

Even back in the dark ages, doctoral students could be awesome. Our Gen Chem (aka inorganic chem) TA in spring had just finished his PhD, and was off to a tenure track position at Princeton. So, in June, he was a just a “TA” but in August he was a regular professor as far as USNews’ ranking was concerned.

fwiw: he was an awesome TA.

24

TA’s can be good or bad. My son’s physics TA who teaches the recitation and lab has taught the entire class and is wonderful where the full professor that teaches the lecture is TERRIBLE! He chose a college with both graduate and undergraduate because of the opportunities the graduate school held for jobs, research, and mentorship. He is planning to go to graduate school there so it is a great fit for him.

Every student is different. I have to say I love Rice. Not a fit for my kid (animal science/pre-vet major) though.

25

I think it can be easier to get earlier research experience at an UG only school. My kid in a STEM subject got a summer research position at her UG only college every summer starting after freshman year, plus during the year part time research experience for 2 full years. She had a lot of good experience that helped when applying to grad schools.

She also got a lot of good mentoring from profs that is harder to get at a larger school with grad students. They helped her a lot with her grad school applications, too.

And no… schools with grad programs don’t necessarily attract more high quality students. Tell it to the students at Swarthmore or Williams or Amherst or Wellesley or Harvey Mudd. You are biased by your big university connection. I went to a prominent large public university myself, but encouraged my kids to attend LACs for the more personal experience.

And regarding grad students “invigorating” the profs — in fact, profs at UG only schools have to pay more attention to the undergrads and bring them along faster in research skills to staff their lab. My kid was basically running her prof’s research lab when he was away sometimes during her senior year and the summer after. At a big school, she would have just been interacting with grad students instead of the prof most of the time, and would have gotten a lot less lab experience.

26

Really depends on what area of study and what environment your child will excel in term of class sizes and outcome opportunities. I am a big fan of what Bucknell has built in terms of a highly selective UG with dedicated colleges of engineering and management and A&S. Foundation core required by all students. Student body of over 3,600. An employer that best described Bucknell engineering graduates by saying we love them because they are high caliber engineers that can write. At end of day there is no right or wrong answer, only what environment sets now up to do the best they can

27

While often the issue of a LAC vs University can involve availability of faculty, access to research and likelihood ofbeing taught by grad students at the LAC, Rice is a unique school in that it is so small it has the benefits of both the feel of a LAC and the benefits of a University.

28

IMO, a bigger differentiator is public v. private college, i.e., ‘easier to get earlier research experience’ at a private college, regardless of whether its UG only or not.

In other words, I would suggest that it is not any easier to get undergrad research experience at top private LACs Williams/Amherst/Pomona/Swarthmore than it is at the top privates Unis (HYPS). They all have a plethora of opportunities for undergrads. Such opportunities are some of what a family pays 2x for the education.

Comparing opportunities at top publics to top private LACs is apples-oranges IMO.

29

Honors college can guarantee research opportunities at some of the large publics as well.

30

I graduated from a liberal arts college (LAC): Reed College. It has a record of producing an extraordinary percentage of graduates who go on to earn doctoral degrees. The college has a demanding curriculum, culminating in a senior thesis that requires substantial independent research and writing. It’s sort of a prep school for future academics, but also professionals in other walks of life.

Many liberal arts colleges have such an impact. Having graduate students or TA’s can be OK (and TA’s who worked for me as a university professor were highly motivated and excellent). But they are absolutely not essential to a high quality undergraduate education.

31

^^definitely concur with your last point mack. And that is what I really loved about my D’s medium-sized private college. She had a few TA’s in the large intro courses, but nothing but tenure-track faculty in the her major course work and every upper division course.

While a senior thesis was not required, it was really easy to do, particularly with the faculty support.

32

Public research universities often have extensive undergraduate research programs that provide opportunities to thousands of undergraduates each year, e.g.:

http://www.washington.edu/undergradresearch/

http://www.washington.edu/undergradresearch/about/

http://www.washington.edu/undergradresearch/symposium/symposium-20th-anniversary/

http://www.washington.edu/undergradresearch/symposium/symposium-on-social-media/

33

Universities tend to offer more major and class choices. They also have more name recognition and higher-level sports scenes.

LACs are 100% focused on undergrads (or nearly so) and tend to have smaller classes and easier access to professors.

When comparing peer universities at the undergrad level, one of the things I compare is their level of undergrad focus – which school has fewer grad students proportionally? The higher the percentage of undergrads, the more focused on them the school likely is.

Like Princeton (67% undergrad) vs. Harvard (~30% undergrad) – H might have more international prestige because of its great grad schools, but if I’m an undergrad deciding between them, I figure right off the bat that Princeton is going to be more focused on me as an undergrad than Harvard will be.

34

Availability of research opportunities really depends on school. It is very difficult to get at state schools. That was one of her biggest consideration when she was choosing school to attend.Including public Ivy like UCLA. At my DD school anyone who wants can get involved with UROP as early as first semester of freshman year.

35

Research opportunities is an interesting subject:

  • A research university is going to be conducting a lot more research than a LAC.
  • But the students at the LAC (undergrads) will have far less competition, or no competition, from grad students to obtain one of those research spots.

So there is more research going on at a U, but less competition to get involved in it at a LAC. (possibly)

Let’s say there are 5000 undergrads and 5000 grad students at a U. Let’s say 1000 of the undergrads and 2000 of the grad students are interested in doing research. And let’s say there are currently 15 research opportunities, with 20 spots open for each one (300 total). Based solely on numbers, each interested student has a 10% chance at being selected to do research. (3000/300).

Meanwhile, at a LAC, there are 2000 students. 200 of them want to do research, and there are 3 research opportunities with 5 open spots per. So there is a 7.5% chance to get one of those spots (15/200).

But then you have to figure that at the U, grad students are more qualified for those research spots. So now, which school, the U or the LAC, offfers a better chance to undergrads to do research?

36

Well, I really think you would need to truly explore research pros & cons, you would need to dig deeper, focusing on specific types of research and facilities. Many unive rsitie are the sites of major research labs, focused on specific fields … and within those labs, there are ongoing staffing needs and very likely to be some spots or funding reserved specifically to undergrads… so the undergrads may not be in direct competition with grad students. On the other hand, the task assignments and level of responsibility might have more of a hierarchical structure than at the LAC. But depending on LAC and research field… that LAC prof may have fewer resources, or less sophisticated facilities to work with – or might not be as established in the field as the directors of the university research labs. And the student in the lab may very well have little or no direct contact with Dr. Famous who leads the lab… but the name of Dr. Famous on a research report may open doors to publication in more highly regarded mainstream journals, or invitations to present conference papers… than the name of Dr. Niceguy at the LAC.

I don’t think the answer necessarily favors one environment or the other, but if a high school student already has “undergrad research” as a college goal, and knows their area of focus – then it would probably make sense to do some background checking of faculty, facilities, and focus of the faculty publications. It may very well be that for a given research top, the profs at the LAC are highly distinguished in their field .-- so it really isn’t so much university vs. LAC but rather individual differences in faculty.

Of course many prospective undergrads just aren’t there yet to figure out exactly what their major will be, much less what specific areas of research to pursue – so it may not matter, and focus on undergraduate teaching at an LAC might be part of what helps guide the student’s interet. After all, the whole point of undergrad education is to learn and gain a broad perspective

37

There are many inaccuracies in this thread, at least in my experience. I have worked in research in a STEM field for a long time, both in industry and academia, and in my opinion, there’s no easy answer to which kind of institution affords a student better research opportunities. A lot depends on the intended field of study and the particular schools in play.

I agree with @Pentaprism - It’s not true that undergrad and grad students “compete” for the same research opportunities at most universities. There are options for both, but they are separate and focused on different outcomes…

Currently I’m mentoring an sophomore in my lab (at a large public university) who has never done research before, so I am teaching him all the basics of lab technique and safety, in a very intensive one-on-one situation. I am able to do this because my lab has the personnel and the money to do so (I wish someone had done this for me when I was an undergrad…at my LAC.) Meanwhile, we have other undergrads and grad students doing more advanced research in the same lab.

Also not true - it depends on the school. At the large state school in which I work, there are amazing research opportunities for undergrads in most departments.

The same is true at my large state university - I personally have mentored UROP students who were freshmen. At my university the program is tailored to freshmen and first-semester sophomores. Incoming freshmen can apply for spots in the summer before their first year. I thought it was this was everywhere!

In my narrow little scientific discipline, there ARE pros and cons to research at undergrad- versus grad-focused schools. Most of it boils down to funding. Often, the bigger names get more funding, so they may have more projects , more up-to-date equipment, and just more bandwidth with which to sponsor undergrad research. I’d say most of those “big names” teach at universities with grad students.

Also, a larger public school may offer more options in more fields – when I was an undergrad, I wanted to do research in a particular kind of chemistry, but no professors offered that kind of research opportunity. If you really want to do research on nanotechnology or protein catalysis as an undergrad but your department doesn’t have a professor who has the funding for that…you’re out of luck.

If undergrad research opportunities are important to you, then you need to do a lot of work to suss out where those opportunities are best. My perspective is probably biased towards large-university-research, but like most other things, it depends on the student, the field of study, and the school(s).

38

I think the point about ‘difficulty’ is the competition from other students to get one of those “amazing” opportunities. IMO, research opportunities are much more available at private schools vs. large publics (as a % of the wannabes).

39

Just for comparison’s sake, what difference would there be in academics and opportunities between UT Austin, Rice University and Amherst College?

40

Research opportunities much more prevalent for undergrads now than eons ago at UW (WI one). There is much greater depth/breadth with grad programs- not just the projects of a few professors.