<p>the ELCAers who voted for this are not fit to be called christians</p>
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<p>Well, considering that the term homosexual doesn’t even appear until the 19th century, we have to rely on Hebrew and Greek scholars to define the terms used when the bible was written. The bible translation that the ELCA uses most frequently, the NRSV, doesn’t even use those words to translate the Hebrew and Greek because they are not accurate translations. Translations are always interpretations. </p>
<p>I think the ELCA’s decision was based on going back to the original language of the bible and what it said, not some human-inspired translation 2000-3000 years later.</p>
<p>Member of an ELCA church here—My family and I are so proud of the assembly for making this statement! </p>
<p>Cur’s right—this argument’s not constructive…I’ll also second his call for the Mod Squad!</p>
<p>Anyone can find a bible verse to support his or her position and will not participate in that back and forth. I believe Jesus died on the cross to save me from my sins. Through grace I am forgiven. I believe I am called to love and forgive others as Jesus asks me to do. I am in no position to and will not be in judgment of others. </p>
<p>FWIW from reading past posts, banjoman appears to be an extremely bright young person who dislikes Catholics, liberals, democrats, atheists and gay people. </p>
<p>I sincerely apologize to all for the turn this thread has taken and also call on the mods to close this thread</p>
<p>AZKmom, you have nothing to apologize for, so please don’t feel that you need to do so. I, along with the majority of others here, am happy that you posted this. It is unfortunate that a 15/16 year old kid has been able to derail what might have been an intelligent discussion, and in the Parents Cafe, no less.</p>
<p>AZKMom - hoping to get this in before the mods close it. Regarding the ELCA, I think this decision will disappoint some members. My bet is that many of them will find Missouri or Wisconsin synod churches to join, so at least they can say they are still Lutherans. I think it will take time (several years) for this to all unfold and see how it impacts the numbers in ELCA seminaries among those who desired ordination/consecration within the ELCA but couldn’t pursue it before this decision. </p>
<p>I had hoped this would be the outcome and had good reason to believe it would happen after the Called to Common Mission (CCM) agreement was instituted in 2001. It would have been rather awkward regarding full communion with the Episcopal church if the ELCA had said we can interchange clergy, but don’t send us your gay ones.</p>
<p>You can read third and fourth generation translations all you want, but unless you are a Hebrew or Greek scholar who can read the original text, there is much room for misinterpretation. </p>
<p>No where in the OT or NT is there any condemnation of homosexual love. Paul uses (such as in Corinthians) the words ‘malakos’ and ‘arsenokoitos’. Malakos has a basic meaning of ‘softness’, which describes a man totally given to self-indulgence. Paul does not see this person living according to God’s will, and I would totally agree. Arsenokoitos refers to some kind of same-sex relationship, but it does not have a clear meaning. It often refered to male prostitution or homosexual rape, which of course, are abhorent. But no where in either the OT or NT is there admonition to a homosexual couple in a committed relationship. The moral demands are the same for homosexual couples as they are for heterosexual couples… rape is wrong, sex for money is wrong, and sex for power is wrong.</p>
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<p>Back 2000-3000 years ago (+ or - a few), there were two kinds of law in Judaism… moral laws and religious laws. A religious law was described as an abomination; a moral law described as a sin. Jesus obeyed both the moral and religious laws, but when they conflicted, he always allowed the moral law to trump the religious rule. A good example would be the story of the leper. Religious laws said he should not touch the leper, but he knew the leper needed healing, so he violated the rule of not touching lepers. </p>
<p>In the OT, it says a man shall not lie with another man as with a woman… this is a religious rule as it is called an abomination. If you appeal to this text to argue against homosexuality, then you are bound to adhere to all religious rules, and start observing all those little nitpicky items in Leviticus. You can’t pick and choose which religious rules you obey. On the other hand, adultery is a moral law, and it applies to both homosexuals as well as heterosexuals. Unlike religious laws, when moral laws are violated, it actually hurts someone else.</p>
<p>By the way, Luther would have never said the biblical scholarship is unimportant; his mission was to make sure biblical scholarship was available to all believers, not just the priests who were interested in political power.</p>
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<p>I guess whenever you play the game telephone, you always win, huh? Sorry to say, but it is imperative that someone have a grasp of the original text. No ifs, ands and buts about it. All ordained ELCA pastors have Hebrew and Greek language requirements because it is their calling and job to spread the Word, as it was written, not as it has been translated over almost 2000 years.</p>
<p>Koldplay’s version of Christianity requires one to have faith not only in God and the scriptures, but also in some other guy’s translations.</p>
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<p>I don’t waste my breath attempting to refute scripture. I just want to get it from the horse’s mouth, so to speak.</p>
<p>AKZMom - this thread encouraged me to go to the ELCA website to see what else was voted on, and I’m pleased to see that they also adopted a full communion agreement with the United Methodist Church… that’s six that the ELCA is in full communion with!</p>
<p>This is great news! 
OP, it was inevitable that you’d get a few flamers, but I for one am glad you posted this.</p>
<p>i dont eat pork or shellfish</p>