<p>Wow, if I had some time, I’d go on the internet and find the study that was published about 6-8 months ago showing a NEGATIVE (not weak, as I recall) correlation between girls who had pledged their chastity and the actual record on pre-marital sex, pregnancy out of wedlock, and the like vs. those who hadn’t. Maybe I am exaggerating the findings of that study in my head, but one thing was clear: these pledges generally didn’t work. </p>
<p>The best way to make sure your kids have good experience, whether it involves sex or not, is to not hype the subject or sensationalize it, but teach them that it’s a part of life that is best handled with care and intentionality. Because of this view, one of my girlfriends had waited a long time; she just didn’t feel pressure about it and wanted to wait until she was ready.</p>
<p>I printed out the first page of the Glamour article in question to show to my wife last night, then forgot about it and left it by the computer in the family room. This morning, when I got up, she was standing in front of me with pretty big eyes, saying “What was that really icky article doing by the computer?” </p>
<p>I think she thought I wanted to do something like that.</p>
<p>mommusic: You are right. Sorry to be obtuse. BCE = “before common era.”</p>
<p>mini: Actually, I believe the idea of ritual “purity” goes WAY back. Some of the earliest Sumerian tablets mention rituals for purifying. Most of them used water, but there were also some pretty gruesome things done in some cultures at some times. I won’t go into them here to avoid the gross out factor.</p>
<p>I know that certain people, priests and priestesses for instance, had to ritually purify themselves before coming before their god after having sex or after menstruating. I’m less clear on how the idea that sex is impure came to be embedded in Western Christian culture, but the first place I’d look would be Jewish tradition, since ancient Jewish customs closely mirrored those of the cultures around them (not surprisingly).</p>
<p>Hereshoping: I think you’re confusing disgust with this particular practice, which feels a bit like ritual incest to me, with condoning a consumer culture that, in its never-ending quest to get a hook into buyers, tries to exploit their deepest fears and basic drives, and does a superb job of it (from their perspective). I think that’s a different thread, and an important one. The more people who understand the mechanisms that are driving unhealthy signals to younger and younger audiences, the more resistance there will be.</p>
<p>“Actually, I believe the idea of ritual “purity” goes WAY back.”</p>
<p>Ritual purity does indeed go way back. But it wasn’t tied to virginity. In fact, just the opposite. The assumption was that you were going to be having sex, and that there were plenty of ways to purify oneself after it. At any rate, in both the Jewish and Christian traditions, premarital sex was considered a requirement, and the marriage itself was the handing off of chattel from one man to another.</p>
<p>In Catholic Europe, right up to the 18th Century, the right of first intercourse was reserved to the lord of the manor or area, in many cases the local bishop or Cardinal. Virginity at marriage was thought to be an act of rebellion, and in many cases was punishable by law.</p>
<p>so, say, the girl does make out with a guy, is she not pure anymore? do the dads see their girls as damaged? do the girls still have a chance at marrige, or do they just ask for forgiveness for their oppsy and get a start over? how many start overs? </p>
<p>what about rape? how is that taken into account? I ask because the girl is supposed to be a virgin at marriage, and in some cultures, even rape is considered failing to stay pure, how is handled in this world?</p>
<p>tarhunt–then I am really puzzled by your comment “It’s a bit BCE for me.”</p>
<p>In my understanding, Judaism has a very healthy attitude towards sex. It was Christianity that turned it into something to be avoided if possible. St. Paul said “It is better to be married than to burn” i.e. if you can’t control your impulses, then get married, but celibacy is the ideal. </p>
<p>Judaism says sex (within marriage) is for intimacy (or fun, if you will), not only procreation; the Church says it’s for procreation and if you don’t want any more children, well too bad for you. (Though you may live together as sister and brother, of course!) Catholic clergy may not marry, nuns “marry” Christ. I could go on and on… </p>
<p>I guess I’m speaking of Catholic Christians, not Protestant ones, but for about 1500 years that was the norm.</p>
<p>I ask because if being Pure is the ideal, if a girl is attacked, would she share that or is the being a virgin paramount, no matter the circumstances? if disappointing daddy over rides all else, how would girls deal, would they tell?</p>
<p>it does, unfortunately happen to young ladies, no matter where they live or how they live, and I am just curious about how girls would deal with it,knowing that they have pledged to God to be a virgin</p>
<p>Many girls don’t tell because they are ashamed, what does this message send to them</p>
<p>Virtually all of the Popes until the 17th Century had children, sometimes dozens of them, except for the eleven openly gay ones. I believe the restriction on priests marrying was placed in the 11-12th century for fear that children rather than the church would inherit church property (priests often also being dukes or lords of the manor). Sex was for FUN!</p>
<p>mini–sex might have been for fun (esp. if you were lord of the manor ) back then, but what I read of today’s Church is pretty restrictive. Of course, I also read that most Catholics do their own thing with regard to sex, within or without marriage.</p>
<p>hh-in case you were wondering, I will go on record as disapproving of all the sex content in Glamour, 17, Cosmo, etc. etc. Even if this is “aimed” at grown women, it is avidly consumed by teens, even young teens.</p>
<p>And don’t get me started on the “beauty” advice and the models who apparently don’t own any pores or freckles. It’s all airbrushed and photoshopped, people! But most young readers don’t know that and come away with a terrible self-image. </p>
<p>I don’t think we’ve ever had a copy of the above magazines in our house, except for a couple brought home by the then-college-age daughter. And she was a pretty smart cookie, so I didn’t worry about her.</p>
<p>re magazines: When she was in high school, my daughter really liked a magazine called Bust. It tried to marry a Conde Nast - type style to a more feminist sensibility, and did it pretty well.</p>
<p>I don’t read Glamour anymore- I think it is for late 20s early 30s- I can’t imagine a teen girl being interested- the clothes are fairly dowdy and the articles are about work and dating.</p>
<p>17 is read by 13 year olds, my 16 year old daughter has been reading Vogue for a few years, and used to get SG until they folded- </p>
<p>Of course it is about sex- if it wasn’t the dads would be getting involved by coaching their sports teams, by encouraging them to take math and science to increase womens involvement in science careers, instead of going on “dates” with their daughters.</p>
<p>I think it is great for dads to spend time with their daughters and sons( as well as their wives), but why are the activities different?</p>
<p>It reminds me of when daughters were “worth less” if they were “tainted” so the father and brothers had to oversee their virginity.</p>
<p>My 16 year old is just as “pure” but she spends her energy with her friends, with playing sports, with her jobs- both volunteer and paid & with getting ready for college and to transition into her adult life.</p>
<p>Its interesting- that there seems to be a lot more emphasis on sex even for 4 year olds? at these things, than with families who don’t ascribe to demanding that their children remain untainted until an (approved) marriage.</p>
<p>It would be like dieting- and obsessing about food all the time and you are going to wait until you lose 10 lbs before you have a nice treat - and instead of getting involved in other things like riding bikes or joining a book group- someone is always coming and checking what is in your cupboards, what is under your bed and what is on your plate</p>
<p>.You know that someone is always watching you for signs that you are going to go off your diet.
You are only loved if you are on your diet- you will disappoint those around you if you even think of going off of it.
It is the most important thing about you.</p>
<p>I meant BCE as in “a WAY long time ago.” I really wasn’t referring to Israel or Judaea, but more to Sumeria, Babylonia, Assyria, Hatti, Hurria, and the like.</p>
<p>I guess I should have said, “This purity thing is just so 5,000 years ago!”</p>
<p>Do you remember the girl in Utah who was abducted by some pretty sick people a short while ago? I remember a quote from her grandfather saying: “Thank God she’s still pure.”</p>
<p>I have two nieces who are LDS- very involved family.</p>
<p>My younger niece just turned 21- and now will be allowed to go on a mission-she has to go through a ceremony to recieve her garments so they will keep her pure while on her mission
( something I don’t understand- boys generally mature later than girls- yet boys are allowed to go on missions when 18, girls not till 21)</p>
<p>Her sister- who has graduated from college, but living at home with her parents- also has petitioned for the garment ceremony-although I think that women don’t usually have the ceremony unless they are married or going on a mission?
it is quite interesting- in a anthropological way- there seems to be a lot of emphasis on “purity” as a moral value.
</p>
<p>( apparently why Marie Osmond was considered a “bad” Mormon, was because she was seen not wearing her garments)</p>
<p>I guess wearing granny undergarments and having to cover them with clothing is one way to enforce conservative dress! Except girls today are not at all shy about showing bra straps and lacy bits of underwear, top and bottom. (Not speaking of LDS girls, of course.)</p>
<p>When I was young it was embarrassing to have a bra strap showing. :eek:</p>
<p>Some people just like to carp; below is a good example of how well this kind of thing works in other countries, reported on the wires this month.</p>
<p>AMMAN, Jordan - A Jordanian man fatally shot his 17-year-old daughter whom he suspected of having sex despite a medical exam that proved her chastity, an official said Thursday. The man surrendered to police hours after the killing, saying he had done it for family honor.</p>
<p>This is from an official release- the emphasis on purity- seems a comment on the rest of us sexual heathens- although I don’t understand why they think that God didn’t want us to use our imagination
</p>
<p>Bill Marriott told Mike Wallace an story about how his garments prevented him from being burned in a fiery boating accident.
Pretty amazing!</p>
) back then, but what I read of today’s Church is pretty restrictive. Of course, I also read that most Catholics do their own thing with regard to sex, within or without marriage.</p>