@BiffBrown : I slipped and meant to put “some” there. Don’t know how that got there. I am alluding to the fact that the schools I refer to (I knew some folks from them) were like in the upper midwest or those schools in the mid-Atlantic and Northeast. Let us keep it real and recognize that the amount of elite private, boarding, and charter schools is not the highest in the south. There are many great schools, but I rarely hear of them having the same structure or caliber as some of the most elite schools outside of the south. Like one student from Ohio referred to how his high school had a very top physics “program”. How many schools are intensive enough to essentially function like a college such that students refer to the STEM instruction by program. He came in already knowing a lot of advanced math and physics. It was actually kind of embarrassing that only the physics 15X or modern physics was offered to a student like that. Emory needs an honors section of calculus-based/higher level math based physics for advanced freshmen. Also, Ono’s REU program is not enough.
The students who go through that REU (look up the track record in some of the news releases featuring Ono REU students) go straight to places like Harvard or at least places with an ultra rigorous math or physics undergraduate program (not just average for an elite school, but we’re talking more like the STEM schools, Chicago, and the other very top public and privates). This is for a reason, such students actually are more akin to “academic admits”, so they look at the academic offerings more seriously. They will have affinity towards places that offer serious honors sequences (perhaps more than one) to cater to students with their background. Emory only got Honors Linear Algebra like maybe a year ago. And even then, the course is more comparable to the equivalent at near peers like Vanderbilt than it is the “equivalent” at places like HYPSMCh, etc.
Those schools and elite publics have much more stratification of freshman level courses and the very top 2-3 courses at schools with super strong UG math and physics programs appears to reach a bit higher than other elites that have weaker programs. Schools like Emory would need to either a) dramatically strengthen and intensify the UG math training (tough when full of joint and double majors pursuing pre-professions) or b) design a laid out honors track (not just two courses) for very advanced freshmen and market it to the students who it wants to recruit. I think the latter is technically more feasible though the growth in enrollment of ECAS could be problematic for these prospects (I actually reached out to the president’s office about potentially returning honors courses across all STEM curriculum when it came to the undergraduate education component of strategic planning. Emory had lower scores when it had honors courses, but it seems it attracted more naturally gifted or extremely ambitious students then as well. Basically the top talent may have been different).
However, I see that physics is now offering a second semester (117) of the introductory astronomy course (116, which does NOT count for majors in astronomy) that will apparently emphasize “advanced topics”. It would honestly make more sense to have a physics 16X series for those with at least one Physics C credit or a Math BC credit, and then phase 14X out and make 15X the default course for ALL STEM majors. Not many non-STEM majors looking for a science credit take the 14X (which should not be the default or even be an option for STEM majors at an elite private university whose lowest level of intro math is calculus 1. Again, I believe Emory is on of the only if not the only elite private that allows STEM B.S. students to take a non-calculus based sequence and it is BS lol. Even if it wasn’t. It is certainly one of the only elites with more students enrolled in non-calc. based than calc. based in any semester. I brought that issue up in my letter as well. It just makes Emory STEM majors look weaker on paper and ensures that they receive weaker training because of course most students will aim low when they have the option to. Notice how Bing teaching 15X didn’t change any minds) series and the incentives of taking 117 are basically non-existent as majors would not get a credit and non-majors will likely be done with the SNT requirement or would like to seek another entry basic level STEM course as opposed to continuing on to “advanced” topics what they started with. Most are only looking for easy STEM classes that meet the SNT requirements anyway.
Either way, when it comes to those folks, if you don’t possess an ultra strong math or physics undergraduate program, you either accidentally recruit one via the scholarship system, or you have a special curricular pathway for them. If the curriculum cannot immediately support them, it won’t be a top choice, and even the scholarship winner, if serious about their training may try to transfer out. Currently, the unspoken pathway for truly talented math folks at Emory is to “take grad classes ASAP”. That doesn’t happen at the best math schools. They probably have enough challenging math courses at the undergrad level to entertain top talent for up to 2 years. There are always exceptions at places like H, but grad. classes are not the immediate go to for top incoming talent. Either way, it takes more than hosting an REU. Currently, Emory and WUSTL have an unusual amount of success with Seimen’s finalists and semi-finalists (or even participants) for schools in our bracket of elite privates, but IPO and IMO, don’t know if I have even met anyone who made the training camp for either. Makes sense because both are known better for undergraduate education in life sciences and Seimens competition draws lots of folks interested in that.