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<p>ooo oooo <em>points out ad hominem</em></p>
<p>A general note on the quadruplet acceptances- all qualified (though not supremely, as is the standard for most white/ORM applicants), the URM status, and the Yale “twins rule” made the positive decisions fairly predictable and explainable.</p>
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<p>So much irrational dismissal of his completely valid point. When you know race is weighed in every case (admissions office themselves admit this, so don’t dispute that), and empirical evidence and common sense indicate that certain minorities receive beneficial treatment in the evaluation process, you cannot look at any specific applicant of these specific minorities - regardless of their objective qualifications - and believe that they were admitted wholly based on factors other than there race. I’m too tired to articulate this fully, but essentially, you know AA is being used to help minorities get accepted, the race of every minority candidate is noted as such when their applications is being admitted, and thus without asking the admissions officer you cannot conclude that race did not play a role in a minority student’s acceptance. It’s not a difficult concept, and I don’t understand why people are so loathe to concede it is true.</p>
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<p>That is very interesting, because I’d argue the exact same thing he does despite being accepted into a top-five school and having no further personal connection to AA in college admissions. It might be exacerbated by indignation (though such indignation is entirely fair) but to people not mired it the arduous journey that is college admissions, the logic still appears clear. I’m glad you have transcended calling people who disagree with affirmative action “racists”, though.</p>
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<p>This is patently wrong. Affirmative-action is used partially to compensate for lower ethnic scores on standardized tests, but solely compensating for those would not help them achieve the diversity levels they desire - there is still the whole matter of grades, for example. In essence, affirmative-action is used by top-five universities because they have a certain level of minority students they want in each entering class (to claim they are diverse and so on), and to ensure an adequate level of acceptances, objective standards must be lowered. Why these standards must be lowered is an entirely different issue - you seem to think there is a bias against the ethnic groups in the SAT, I’m not going to posit any explanations - regardless of the argument here, the purpose of affirmative action remains the same.</p>
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<p>Maybe, though we should also wonder why rich URM students receive the same boost (for both grades and test scores) as poorer ones.</p>
<p>As a final word, Dbate, I’d recommend taking ENGL 114 or ENGL 120 next semester, because I think your writing and rhetorical skills could use the practice. Maybe we could even end up in the same section and have a nice enlightening classroom discussion on the issue of race in college undergraduate admissions.</p>
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<p>No, because some people seem to think that because Affirmative Action exists, it means all minorities are somehow less or uni-qualified. Affirmative Action doesn’t create the problem that you’re referring to in this instance. People like you, and some others on this board, do.</p>
<p>it is ridiculous that you guys are criticizing mifune’s WRITING STYLE when none of you have shown any better writing. not even close. mifune’s post #201 is brilliant. you can’t argue with the statistics: a (racial) group of students that is academically underachieving is admitted at twice the rate of the average student? hmmmm I smell a grave injustice</p>
<p>This is a perfect manifestation of one of the aspects of the argument against AA. thank you Rumjhum
YES WE DO. well I don’t really, but plenty of asians do</p>
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<p>Although I am not in your shoes, I am sympathetic to you because you have to suffer this kind of pain which many URMs have to go through. Also, I admire your ambitious goal of being a summa (which is like 3.93 in recent years – very very few 4.0 though, especially in the science area.)</p>
<p>I’m pretty sure he wasn’t saying it was because he was an URM, it was because he always doubts himself no matter what and is overly self-critical. Most people at Ivy Leagues don’t dwell on why or how they got in, they just take advantage of the education they’re getting.</p>
<p>You know what? You guys have won me over. I’m spreading my wings and flying the nest of rationality and acceptance, and joining the dark side.</p>
<p>Because mifune and Pigs are right.</p>
<p>This is ridiculous.</p>
<p>Clearly the quads have only been accepted because they’re black. They don’t even have perfect SAT scores. What’s up with that? There’s plenty more deserving people (Asians, mostly) who actually worked hard for their SATs, and that’s proven in their 2400s. </p>
<p>Clearly we should just admit all the Native Americans too. We owe them. We gave them smallpox like a million years ago, I don’t think we ever said sorry for that, did we?</p>
<p>Clearly Affirmative Action dictates the workings of the world. It’s very disappointing. In a world where white people and asians are clearly superior, it’s disheartening to know that hispanics and black people get an edge in college admissions simply because of the colour of their skin. So on average they have lower scores than whites and asians. So on average they are socioeconomically disadvantaged. This means nothing. They’re still underachievers, right?</p>
<p>And can I just say how thrilled I am that this board is filled with such eloquent, intelligent individuals who can keep a debate entirely on-topic and not at all digress into long-winded rants based on personal grievances. It astounds me that not only are you true masters of the English language, but you’re also experts on college admissions, statistics, and social economics. From the bottom of my heart, I applaud you. You don’t need Yale, you’re all ready to take on the world.</p>
<p>I am not worthy to be here. I don’t have a 2400 on the SAT. And I’ll be completely honest - I had to look up “ad hominem.” Your thoughtful debates put me to shame in a way that I may as well just be sitting here dribbling on the keyboard. But hopefully you can see past my evident lack of intelligence and see some understanding in my words.</p>
<p>You inspire me.</p>
<p>By George I think Portugueseninja has finally got it!</p>
<p>for those of you citing the bollinger case in which minorities were given a 20 pt boost, that practice was deemed unconstitutional by the court- im not sure what validity that gives to your argument, mifune + stupefy? the practice was obviously wrong, and so not what affirmative action is about- the court eventually recognized this. </p>
<p>what affirmative action was most originally intended to do, correct me if im wrong, was to give the minority applicant a boost only if he or she was as equally qualified as the other non-minority applicant. i think the problem arises with the standards regarding “equally qualified”. since college admissions is holistic and “qualified” can mean any number of things, im not sure why the fuss about citing SAT scores and such- quite honestly, theres not much noticeable difference in the classroom between me, an ORM who scored 2400, and my URM friends who score between 2000-2100- theyre all quite intelligent. however, it is definitely true that kids in my grade do not regard a prestigious college acceptance from a URM with the same respect, definitely. </p>
<p>just adding some color.</p>
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and therein lies your problem. sigh</p>
<p>Dbate, I can always rely on you to defend white racism. It’s unfortunate that despite all of your wonderful accomplishments, the one thing you don’t get is race. You are so delusional when it comes to where you fit in society. You’re bright but yet you DOUBT your capabilities because of other people’s racist perceptions of Black and other minorities. Have you not missed the sense of entitlement that these people who are writing in about “fairness” have? Even if there were NO URM in the pool, 90% of the applicants would be rejected. Who then would they blame?? What then would they attribute their rejection to. Dbate you’re very young, trust me, you’ll get it soon. You’ve already said you’re treated in New Haven like a thief when you walk into some stores. It doesn’t matter where you go to school and what your accomplishments are, people see your race FIRST. Obama who is Harvard educated and was editor of the Harvard Law Review was constantly treated as if he had a GED and had gone to some open admissions community college. Once you understand that in this racist society, there are MANY (and note I said MANY and not all) white (and apparently Asians) who refused to believe that a Black person can accomplish something that they can’t. I have a daughter (Black) who is highly accomplished and has travel the world and done many impressive things that Whites never associate with Black students. She has two BLACK parents with Ph.Ds. She’s priviledged. Liberal whites treat here like an honorary white (because she’s so “articulate” and doesn’t fit the stereotype society has of Blacks). She never been in a “special” program (although there is absolutely nothing wrong with them). She pays full tuition to an institution that cost $53,000. So, it truly throws them for a loop. As long as Black ALLOW people like the mifune and pigs in a blanket to voice their ignorance and racism, they win. I totally ignore these uninformed and sour grapes people. They need a scapegoat and racism is the easiest one to use. They need to do some research on the history of admissions and see how common it has been for many types of students who are not “competitive” in the classic sense get in. Also, when one says qualified, it’s any one who can do the work, not necessarily the person who is in ranked number 1 in a class. If you’re in a very competitive high school, even if you’re number 50 in a class of 600-750 or more, that’s impressive.</p>
<p>Aw, why is there this prevailing notion here that all Asians have high SAT scores but are deficient in non-academic accomplishments?</p>
<p>Dbate, you really need to know more about your history. The reason there is affirmative action is for decades (until the Civil Rights Act of the 1963 and the Higher Education Act of 1965), Blacks were SYSTEMATICALLY kept out of most white institutions and only a high full allowed into those who were let it. You are so brainwashed and clueless about racism. Almost ALL of the earliest Black students who went to elite white colleges and universities prior to the 1960s were Phi Beta Kappa and extraordinary students. Also, MOST colleges aren’t competitive in the first place and accept more students than they reject. It’s only the Ivies and a hand full of elite private schools that we’re talking about in the first place. It’s unfortunate that you’ve bought into this bull that minority students are so inferior to white students. I can assure you as a professor in an elite university that no institution would take a risk on enrolling students that they don’t feel are prepared and capable of doing the work. It brings down the stats of the college and is a waste of time and money for the student and the institution. You really need to read more and study more about the history of Black students in white institutions. If Black and other minorities were so inferior, there wouldn’t have been an institutionalize band on having them apply and enroll. It was not that they couldn’t do the work, it was just the opposite - they COULD do the work. This is what was so threatening to elite whites. Just look at what minority recruitment did for first generation students of color like Michelle Obama and Sonia Sotomeyer. They defied all of the naysayers such as the ones on this thread. Their test scores were not off the chart but they were steller students and the rest is history. The reality is, admissions people know how to look beyond the scores and look at other factors. I think of how many outstanding students would have missed out on opportunities if the only criterion was a test score. You need to stop drinking the “white is smarter koolaid”.</p>
<p>To Calico: Maybe the chance me threads we’ve seen where the Asians list amazing SAT and AP scores but only list the same generic EC’s (play an intrument, play tennis, studied at a science program at a prestigious university, member of the NHS) and generally nothing outside of the ordinary.</p>
<p>To lmpw: American Indians were kept out too! We deserve a little recognition.</p>
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THANK YOU</p>
<p>Dash- “nothing outside the ordinary”??!?!?!? UGH I’m so tired of this BULLCRAP. wt f do you think we are- just test taking, calculating robots who arent good at ANYTHING ELSE? give me your email, I will send you my resume and you tell me my ECs are “generic.” same goes for the vast majority of asians I have met on CC who got deferred from yale, as well as the 10-20 asians I know in real life who were deferred from yale. I know some asians who are spectacular students, who have accomplished amazing things FAR outside the realm of academics and tests, and I’m really not surprised. the whole asian robot stereotype is NOT (or no longer) valid. we’re well rounded. get over it. stop trying to brand us and stop trying to point out our deficiencies. its hypocritical of you to accuse US of being racist, when you come right back and label us with negative stereotypes.</p>
<p>“it is definitely true that kids in my grade do not regard a prestigious college acceptance from a URM with the same respect, definitely.”</p>
<p>“and therein lies your problem. sigh…”</p>
<p>Stupefy
Is that really what this is about? Getting the respect of “kids in my grade”? I’m sure I could be missing it, but it does not really seem to be an issue at my stage in life ( almost dead…)…I feel pretty good about what I’m doing and the folks who seek me out. Of course, contrary to popular belief, affirmative action never ONCE crossed my mind until I came to college confidential. Of course, neither did going to a “prestigious school”…</p>
<p>And Dash…FWIW, a lot of “us” African Americans have a significant bit of Native American heritage. My grandmother, for example. But I’m sure you know that story…</p>
<p>Okay, really REALLY done this time…baking cookies…<a href=“http://www.finecooking.com/recipes/caramel-turtle-bars.aspx[/url]”>http://www.finecooking.com/recipes/caramel-turtle-bars.aspx</a>
not listening…</p>
<p>I totally don’t think I called you racist (and if I did I was kidding)! But yeah, I cited some of the chance me threads. And the Asians at my school who shoot for the Ivies are all like that: they play Tennis, they play piano, they joined the NHS and they volunteered at a hospital, with the last one being interchangeable to the field they want to major in. I don’t really think most Asians are like this; I live in a backwards place, most of the stereotypes are true (most of us Indians are heavy alcoholics, Asians work mostly at the hospital, whites whine about the hispanics and blacks here, etc.), and I acknowledge that the Asians here are totally not representative of the Asians everywhere else.</p>
<p>So yeah.</p>
<p>^sorry, my post wasn’t directed at you in particular, but at the pervasive idea of the “stereotypical” asian. it’s just as bad to stereotype all asians as antisocial math nerds as it is to stereotype all black people as athletes, or all jewish people as stingy, etc.
Maybe you live in a backward society, but I don’t, and I can tell you that all of the Asians I know are as diverse as you could expect from any group of students. Some ARE brilliant at math/science but others are amazing writers, some dedicate themselves entirely to community service, some are student government junkies, and some are just stupid and lazy.</p>
<p>isn’t it ironic that america’s greatest strength (its diversity) is oftentimes the cause of its greatest social problems? sigh</p>
<p>DASH753, Yes, I totally agree with your statement of how Native Americans have been treated. Normally, they don’t even factor into a discussion or studies becasue of the low numbers. But, for sure, Native Americans have been screwed by this country. I guess since the number of Asians in all of the elite schools far exceed their representation in society, it’s difficult for me to understand their complaints. If Asians were rarely or NEVER admitted into these institutions, then, yes, there should be some concerns. I’m always curious why such people always believe that their rejection or deferal was due to a student of color and not a white student (if one is to believe that some otherwise unqualified applicants took THEIR spot). Do any of your white or Asian folks ever think that there are undeserving Whites who were admitted??? Just asking.</p>