Quadruplets Admitted to Yale

[Dash753]

<p>

By simple intuition, we can rationalize that blacks receive admission privileges similar to those of Hispanics, while Native Americans receive the greatest benefits of all due to the dearth of representative American Indian populations at AA-practicing institutions.

</p>

<p><em>raises hand for high five</em></p>

<p>Anyone? Anyone?</p>

[Mooners]

<p>I have to say, though you guys seem to be repeating several of the same arguments, it’s nonetheless much more stimulating than the conversation several pages back (pigs<em>at</em>sea’s posts will do wonders for the world some day). I applaud you guys for bringing the intellectual fiber of this debate to a new level. At the same time I’d like to apologize for not adding any constructive input of my own…</p>

[amciw]

<p>

@NearL

Nope. In the absence of racial affirmative action, socioeconomic affirmative action would benefit white applicants by far. Socioeconomic affirmative action only assumes that money is the obstacle that a student has to overcome. The reality is quite different. Is a black student that grew up in Camden and attended a failing school to be held to the same standard as a white kid that grew up on a farm in Kansas just because both of their household’s make the same amount of money? Though one may constantly worry about the bullets buzzing around his head and the gangs trying to recruit him and the other only has to really worry about the work on his safe farm, according to socioeconomic affirmative action, they should receive the same consideration.

</p>

<p>Doesn’t socioeconomic AA imply one’s economic and social standing are both considered? In that case, wouldn’t the admissions committee be able to differentiate between someone in a secure Kansas rural town and someone in a dangerous ghetto, despite equivalent financial situations?</p>

<p>Also, are you a freshman at Yale?</p>

[NearL]

<p>

Doesn’t socioeconomic AA imply one’s economic and social standing are both considered? In that case, wouldn’t the admissions committee be able to differentiate between someone in a secure Kansas rural town and someone in a dangerous ghetto, despite equivalent financial situations?

</p>

<p>If the ‘socio’ part of socioeconomic affirmative action means social situation then yes, but that just leads to the question of how much growing up in a dangerous ghetto is really worth. How much is having an absent father worth? How much is any of the problems a poor ghetto youth experiences really worth? It’s all hard to quantify.</p>

<p>Make no mistake: I think that poor whites are increasingly forgotten and something needs to be done to recognize their plight. However, they are a smaller, sturdier segment of America than poor minorities. They are on average better off and have the advantage that comes with being a white person in a white society.</p>

<p>

Also, are you a freshman at Yale?

</p>

<p>Yes.</p>

[NearL]

<p>

<em>raises hand for high five</em></p>

<p>Anyone? Anyone?

</p>

<p><em>high fives</em></p>

<p>The red man can get ahead, man.</p>

[Dash753]

<p><3</p>

<p>Thanks, bro!</p>

[amciw]

<p>Ah, okay. I thought you were. Which college are you in?</p>

<p>

@NearL

If the ‘socio’ part of socioeconomic affirmative action means social situation then yes, but that just leads to the question of how much growing up in a dangerous ghetto is really worth. How much is having an absent father worth? How much is any of the problems a poor ghetto youth experiences really worth? It’s all hard to quantify.

</p>

<p>I look at socioeconomic AA as as method of accounting for a poorer applicants inability to properly compete with students applying from affluent suburban schools, rather than a means of compensating for prior social ills or or establishing “diversity” in the entering class. Consequently, I think we should ignore the differing perspectives “afforded” by such a situation and instead focus on how much of a hindrance it was in compiling a compelling application for admission. While difficult to properly quantify, enough research has been done on the developmental effects of not having a caring father, or on the reduction in GPA when a student is forced to work to support their family, that something rudimentarily fair could be implemented.</p>

<p>

Make no mistake: I think that poor whites are increasingly forgotten and something needs to be done to recognize their plight. However, they are a smaller, sturdier segment of America than poor minorities. They are on average better off and have the advantage that comes with being a white person in a white society.

</p>

<p>There are less poor whites in America than poor minorities? Are you absolutely sure?</p>

[silverturtle]

<p>

Can a mod or someone just rename this thread ““Race” in College Admission FAQ & Discussion 7” please…

</p>

<p>I sure hope not. I’ve never been a fan of those mammoth merged threads on race. They seem to localize the discussion in a way that restricts the spontaneous debate of an important controversy.</p>

[lmpw]

<p>I’m exhausted reading these posts now. Mifune is locked in his views and will never look beyond the “unfairness” of colleges utilizing their perovative to create interesting and diverse classes, not simply ones of students who have the top and almost exact profiles. Private institutions can accept whomever they like. I guess what this discussion has done for me is to let my daughter know how profoundly entrenced the notion of white and Asian intellectual superiority is. My daughter who attends an elite LAC says she and other Black students live this every day. But, this is the reality of America. More than 10,000 people have logged in to view this topic. The discussion started out discussing the admission of the quadruplets. Now, this has evolved into a discussion (Again and again and again) of race and how URM are taking “more deserving - meaning higher test scores” others. I suspect that Mifune and Pigs in a Basket will remain on this thread probably until they reach retirement age believing that could have been at Yale if it were not for URM. I"m done with this thread . Happy Holidays and Happy New Year.</p>

[silverturtle]

<p>

Mifune is locked in his views and will never look beyond the “unfairness” of colleges utilizing their pero[g]ative to create interesting and diverse classes, not simply ones of students who have the top and almost exact profiles.

</p>

<p>Are you implying that it’s bad for top schools to accept students with “top…profiles”? You also seem to be positing the offensive and racially discriminatory idea that a school that does not practice affirmative action would be completely lacking in “interesting and diverse” students who don’t have “almost exact[ly] [the same] profiles.”</p>

[silverturtle]

<p>

I guess what this discussion has done for me is to let my daughter know how profoundly entrenc[h]ed the notion of white and Asian intellectual superiority is.

</p>

<p>With such a radical and blanket statement as this, you’re going to have to quote someone to have me believe that this ideology has been communicated in this thread. I don’t recall reading anyone’s post on here that suggested intellectual superiority.</p>

[Stupefy]

<p>

Your comment rises closer to the level of an indication of racial supremacy than any of mifune’s do. Neither of you, though, seems to be racist.

yeah seriously I don’t find any of mifune’s arguments to be “white supremecist” in fact, he has acknowledged the high quality of asian applicants. sheesh</p>

[drbigboyjoe9505]

<p>^ I would agree with you. I don’t think that he’s a “white supremacist” or a “racist,” as we’re defining it.</p>

[drbigboyjoe9505]

<p>I agree that this discussion is getting very long and that our arguments are basically being repeated over and over again. Although, I want to thank silverturtle for bringing up some very important questions (both in favor and against AA). I think these are the questions we should really be discussing. But, I do want to respond to some of the things mifune said.</p>

<p>

Many whites and Asians’ experiences are not positive yet they do not receive the slightest vestige of AA benefits.

</p>

<p>I do not argue against this, nor did I say this was not true. What I was simply saying was that your claim that race-based social experiences is not an appropriate comment to say because you do not know the experiences of people from other races. To claim that their experiences are “positive” is hurtful to those whose experiences have not been and whose experiences you are dismissing. This does not only mean black and Latino experiences, but Asian and even white ones (because you do not know the experiences of every white person).</p>

<p>

Actually, as I asserted earlier, socioeconomic AA would undeniably largely come to the benefit of minority applicants and does not simply “sneak white kid into elite colleges.”</p>

<p>And no, socioeconomic AA does not denigrate the achievements or low-income and low-asset students because it places their accomplishments within an objective framework. These students’ families cannot afford two years of SAT tutoring or private piano lessons or tuition to send their children to private schools or afford PSEO opporunities at the state university or afford summer programs among other educational luxuries which provide distinct opportunities to increase one’s admission chances.

</p>

<p>I am not against socioeconomic-based “AA,” because I agree that the achievements of students with less monetary means needs to be put into context. Does it favor one race over another? Perhaps. In fact, I think that it might favor whites over blacks seeing that there are more poor whites than blacks (simply because there are more whites). Sure, the poverty RATE is disproportionate, but in terms of sheer numbers, there are more whites.</p>

<p>

To both of the above quotes: Common sense and the overwhelming barrage of statistics to the contrary prove that it does. I believe that we have all transcended the irrefutable reality that it does exist.

</p>

<p>These statistics, however, do not prove that what is at play is Affirmative Action (as a quota system) over a system where what the school is after is diversity. I am not arguing that a “preferential” system is at play. I am arguing that the purpose of this “preferential” treatment is not to fill a quota but rather to create a DIVERSE student body. You may not think that this is a desirable trait, but your opinion on that issue is irrelevant.</p>

<p>I’ll continue later, perhaps.</p>

[Dbate]

<p>

“Surely, growing up as an African-American or Hispanic male is a traumatic experience. I have African-American and Hispanic friends and even I can tell that people treat them differently. They get followed in stores. They are assumed to have bad intentions until they prove the contrary to be true. People treat them differently and they have to recognize this and act accordingly. Even as an Asian male, I can recognize this, because I face the same thing to. The only thing is, those expectations are rarely a burden. It doesn’t suck that people rarely question my competence, moral fiber or intellectual ability. But I imagine that, if people did that to me on a daily basis, it would wear away at me. I imagine that, if I were not a very strong person, I would be bitter. I imagine, that, if the world always expected nothing of me, I might be much more likely to be nothing.”

</p>

<p>The supporters of socioeconomic affirmative action fail to realize the extent to which this is true. I attended a high school with a high proportion of affluent minorities whose parents were businessmen, doctors, and engineers. The student parking lot contained BMWs, Mercedes, and Hummers belonging to white and black students. </p>

<p>According to the hypothetical socioeconomic status argument, these black students were not disadvantaged in any way, however, that fails to account for the fact that cops would routinely stop the minority kids who drove expensive cars while rarely stopping their white counterparts.</p>

<p>It is an undeniable fact that in America those who are black or hispanic are treated differently than Asians or whites. Even being out in New Haven I am treated differently and looked upon with suspicion if I do not wear my Yale attire. The same holds true for the academic competitions that are necessary for one to become a successful Ivy league applicant. There is a severe dearth of minorities at math, science, debate, or computer science competitions, and often times the asian students are directly condescending to minorities (I specifically mention Asian students because in my experience white competitors never displayed overt condescension in the manner that Asian students would.)</p>

<p>In in my high school, during my freshman and sophomore years Asian students would blatantly exhibit their frustration when where coupled with me as a partner on an assignment (again behavior that was never exhibited by white students). The most extreme irony, and severe retribution, was that at graduation I had a better class rank than the very students who did not want to work with me. </p>

<p>Even in the age of Obama minorities of all socioeconomic levels are discriminated against, and in fact the wealthier minorities face MORE discrimination because we go to areas where people have the insidious perception that blacks do not belong. </p>

<p>Socioeconomic affirmative action fails to address this problem, and for those who would scoff at this form of discrimination I would suggest that you learn basic psychology.</p>

[silverturtle]

<p>

Socioeconomic affirmative action fails to address this problem, and for those who would scoff at this form of discrimination I would suggest that you learn basic psychology.

</p>

<p>You’re right.</p>

[mcat2]

<p>

Often times the asian students are directly condescending to minorities (I specifically mention Asian students because in my experience white competitors never displayed overt condescension in the manner that Asian students would.)

</p>

<p>Dbate, I agree with you that this may be happening. I also believe one of the reasons why this may be happening is that many asian americans have been in this country for a generation or two only (It takes years, if not generations, to learn this stuff); but white americans have been here for many many generations, especially they have been through the civil right movement during 60’s.</p>

<p>One thing I am actually happy for my child is that, unlike in high school where he had very few opportunities interacting with students of other ethnic groups, he has many opportunities to have some close friends of other ethnic groups in college. He joined and has been actively involved in a club where there are many minorities (he went to CC as well and made some friends there as a freshman.) My guess is that he has a lot of interactions with african american students as well as students of many other ethnic groups.</p>

<p>At one time, he even asked an african american student who is from the local area to take him to his church. I heard that, he and another of his friends who went there that evening, both of them being from other ethnic groups, really “stand out” but the members from that church welcomed them there. (Granted, the motivation for him to be there is not due to some “more high level” reason like trying to understand/explore their culture. The only reason is that he likes their music and would like to have some first-hand experiences with it.)</p>

<p>BTW, I believe he himself has no problem with affirmative action in general but he seems to have some problems with legacy admits (but only when the standard for admitting a legacy student is lower.)</p>

[LuciaB]

<p>I actually had to join CC because of this thread. mifune, seriously, has to be the most inspiring, intelligent person I have every come across on an Internet message board. He does not support any type of racial supremacy since he is merely asking for a more objective approach to AA. I personally am of Hispanic descent and will receive AA but I do not look forward to anyone doubting my accomplishments because of my skin color. and I have never felt burdened because of my heritage in any way. In fact, I feel privileged because of it and my experiences have been completely positive.</p>

[LuciaB]

<p>

Mifune is locked in his views and will never look beyond the “unfairness” of colleges utilizing their perovative to create interesting and diverse classes, not simply ones of students who have the top and almost exact profiles.

</p>

<p>Whoever said this is wrong. He is not locked in his views. Like he said, race does not create talents or automatically diversify anything. Plus everyone with EXACT STATISTICAL profiles does NOT have the same EXACT TALENTS. One may be a scientist, one may be a musician, one may be an economist, one might speak five languages, and one might have traveled the world and have multiple perspectives. This is the definition of diverse talents NOT having different ethnicities for the sake of it. Again this is coming from someone who is Hispanic. Do I have any natural talents because I happen to be Hispanic? Absolutely not. </p>

<p>

I guess what this discussion has done for me is to let my daughter know how profoundly entrenced the notion of white and Asian intellectual superiority is.

</p>

<p>Throughout this thread I cannot emphasize how AA supporters have attacked those willing to point out the racism present in AA or distorted completely objective and rational arguments to make it seem that those more fair are seen as “bigots” and “racists” or those who support intellectual superiority.</p>

<p>

huge wealth disparity between whites and blacks and Hispanics

</p>

<p>Then why not base AA on economic status like mifune suggests? You cannot generalize racial experiences because everyone in an ethnic group does not have the same experiences. Instead we must base them on a fair measure.</p>

[LuciaB]

<p>NearL seems to be the biggest ‘supremacist’ on this thread because he always claims how he doesn’t want ‘white kids sneaking into college’ and how whites arent that competitive and can’t hold a stick to the asian pool.</p>