This is a great point – because schools use such different systems to weight grades, the weighted GPA means little without context. At best, it can show when a student has taken more challenging courses, because the difference between weighted and unweighted will be more pronounced. But comparing WGPAs in schools that add weight to a lot of classes versus schools that add weight to very few is not a useful exercise, and AOs know that, I assume.
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Through level 5 is more than meeting minimum requirements and certainly more than enough to “order a taco”.
The point I am trying to make is that a kid who wants to study engineering, junior and senior year electives should probably reflect that interest. My opinion.
If he were trying to play the rigor game and/or get to a more useful level of proficiency, taking level 4, 5, AP, AP would be better than taking 1, 2, 3, 4. The latter only makes sense if he is much more interested in the new language than the one that he can start at level 4 in.
By the way, I always like to check the Yale Admission Podcast–just one college, of course, but they have a searchable transcript, so that is very handy.
Anyway, this is what they say (in one of their “myth buster” episodes), and it confirms your sense of how they would think seeing so many different systems:
[Hannah] Yeah. OK, myth number five. Oh, this is a good one. OK, you need to take every available AP, IB, dual enrollment, A-level course in your school to be competitive.
(TOGETHER) Busted!
[Jill] Oh, people drive themselves absolutely bonkers with this one, so we are really happy that we’re going to talk about this.
[Mark] OK, so let’s start with the obvious kernel of truth here. The rigor of your high school curriculum, it is absolutely one of the most important parts of the application review process. I was a philosophy major, so this is sort of philosophy term.
[Hannah] Uh-oh.
[Mark] This is something necessary, a necessary but not sufficient criteria. Right? So OK, having a rigorous curriculum, that is necessary. If you don’t have that, things are not going to work out very well for you, but it’s not sufficient. That is not going to be the thing alone that’s pushing you in, even if the rigor of your high school curriculum is eye-popping in context.
[Hannah] Mm-hmm.
[Jill] Yeah.
[Hannah] Pursuing, quote, “the most rigorous curriculum in your high school” isn’t necessarily the same as taking absolutely every single advanced class. It doesn’t mean that you have to load up on seven APs. And if, then, if your classmate has eight or nine, then suddenly, you’re at a disadvantage.
[Jill] Mm-hmm.
[Mark] Yeah, we see this arms race happening within schools where people just try to one up each other in a class or year over year.
[Hannah] Right.
[Jill] Yeah, I think it’s also important to note that high school context very dramatically– I mean, that’s probably pretty intuitive. But the fact that one high school could offer you all of these different APs, but then some high schools only let you take those APs if you’re also taking these other classes beforehand, or you can’t actually do something you like, like, music alongside this other AP course because they happen at the same time. And so we don’t expect that you’re taking every single AP, IB, or high level course in your school. It’s just not reasonable.
[Mark] Mm-hmm.
[Hannah] Yeah, and that’s why we’re always talking about context and trying to understand where you’re coming from, because we want to understand those sort of limitations and what has led you to take the classes that you have taken.
[Mark] Right. So context plays into different high schools. It also plays into different experiences within the same high school. We get panicked calls and emails every year from juniors and seniors when they get their schedules and something just doesn’t fit.
[Hannah] Yeah.
[Jill] Mm-hmm.
[Mark] That’s life. We all have the same limitations of space and time. We get it. And along with the fact that things might just not fit for whatever reason, there are probably lots of interesting courses that you want to take that maybe don’t necessarily have an AP designation next to them. That’s OK.
[Jill] Yes.
[Hannah] That’s great. Yeah, totally So certainly, be sure you’re taking rigorous courses in your core academic subjects, but you don’t need to obsess over the exact total number of AP courses. And certainly, you don’t need to stress out about your GPA weight and oh, if I take this elective, is that going to bring my GPA down?
[Jill] Yeah, I think we want to select bright, accomplished students who have been resourceful and academically hungry, but not the student who confused learning with grinding out every single AP class and who played the GPA game to get the number one rank.
[Mark] Yeah, absolutely. I think we can all say that we have seen students who are number one and who have taken as many advanced classes in their school as possible who are really, really compelling. Again, they had that necessary but not sufficient element. We’ve also seen students who are in that same sort of position academically who are not compelling either academically or non-academically, right?
[Jill] Mm.
[Mark] They’re very accomplished, but the kinds of academic things that would get us excited about them, they’re just not there in the file, despite the fact that they have really taken the rigor to the max.
I highlighted what I believe is their definitive answer. Again, just one college, but the basic logic here is very likely widespread, for the reasons they explain.
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That transcript should be framed and hung on the wall of every HS adviser, everywhere.
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Likewise, a student asked their GC at one of the most competitive test-in HS (so one with tons of placements at highly rejective schools) if it made a difference if they had a 94 or 99 in their classes and was told, no - the 94 was fine, and the effort and energy should be directed elsewhere. It turned out to be true for this kid.
But if I understood correctly, OP’s kid isn’t chasing a particular college, but is simply hellbent on being val.
In my kid’s HS class, there were a couple kids who had the same strategy/motivation as OP’s kid. All the other students who were high in the “ranks” thought those students were nuts, and not that fun to be around. Those students were also not happy with their college admissions outcomes, FWIW. The other strong students with more focused and personalized strategies were mostly happy with the outcomes. I wish their school didn’t rank, though my kid didn’t care about the rankings.
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Yeah, those Yale folks are generally very nice, but every once in a while they provide a not-so-subtle warning about what doesn’t look so good, and this struck me as an important one from that episode:
I think we can all say that we have seen students who are number one and who have taken as many advanced classes in their school as possible who are really, really compelling. Again, they had that necessary but not sufficient element. We’ve also seen students who are in that same sort of position academically who are not compelling either academically or non-academically, right?
I think what they are trying to say is if you end up #1 in your class thanks to following their advice to challenge yourself broadly while also pursuing your specific interests in depth, great.
But if they get the impression from your transcript but also maybe essays and possibly even recommendations that you really just devoted yourself to being #1 for the sake of college admissions? That is not what they are looking for either academically or in terms of personal values.
And I think that is a challenging message for some kids, one they don’t always understand right away. Because they have not really been evaluated like that before in ways that matter to them.
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There is a meaningful difference between a teacher’s rec which says “Joanne is a joy to teach- her curiosity is infectious, and she has contributed so much to class discussions.” vs. “Joanne is so diligent that she will not rest until she has achieved every extra credit point available to her- whether a quiz, a project, or a class presentation.”
Both Joanne’s can be ranked number 1 in their class. Both teachers said “for sure” when the respective Joanne’s asked them to write a college recommendation. Both teachers were able to check the “most rigorous” box.
But which Joanne do the adcom’s think will add the most to their campus- the curious one or the one trying to “win” HS?
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And precisely why many schools don’t rank and, like my daughter’s school, don’t choose the valedictorian based solely on who has the highest GPA.
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He’s not chasing a particular college. He’s definitely motivated to have choices.
He’s not particularly competitive with other kids academically. He’s competitive with himself. So, it’s not about being val, as much as it is about wanting his score to be as high as he can get it. So, if he has a 4.45, but he could have had a 4.5 if he had taken those weighted classes, that would bother him. But if has a 4.5, and someone else has a 4.6, that would bother him less.
Having said that, he’s moving from a MS where he is used to being the top student in his class, to a HS with a cohort of academically talented and motivated kids. I am curious to see how that transition goes.
It’s not so much that he’s less interested in Spanish. It’s that he has ways to continue to develop his Spanish that don’t require him taking it at school. It’s not a heritage language, as I understand the term, but it’s one he has a lot of exposure to in his day to day life. So, in his mind it’s not “Do I like Spanish or Arabic” (not sure Arabic is what he’d pick, but it’s one of the choices) it’s “Wouldn’t it be cool to know Spanish AND Arabic!”
This is one of the downsides to a system where it is even possible to think like that.
Like, our HS doesn’t weight, doesn’t rank, and uses a 4.33 scale where no one gets all A+s. So, all the top students are somewhere well below a 4.33, and it is pointless to care about whether you have a 4.08 or 4.09 or whatever.
Which doesn’t mean no one ever takes easier classes to try to get a higher GPA. I am not sure it is even possible to entirely avoid that and still give colleges useful information about grades.
But at least people don’t make choices about which electives to take based on some mechanical impact on their GPA.
Anyway, to the extent possible, I think you have to try to guide your kid into thinking the same way regardless of system. Because that is what these colleges do, they are generally uninterested in any of that, for the logical reason they are comparing 4.45s to 4.08s to 96s to IB 41s and so on. And in that context, that whole mechanical 4.45 versus 4.5 thing becomes rightly meaningless.
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I agree with you 100%.
This will be our first experience with a school that weights like this, and so far, I’m not a fan of the system. But the program is a good fit for him in other ways.
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True, but not all highly selectives recalculate GPA.
Regardless, what is important is how the student did in the context of their HS, so when the AOs look at all the apps from a given HS (which they will do) sorted by GPA (whatever the school is using for GPA), well…best to be near the top. Even considering holistic admissions.
With that said, I do think OP’s S is obsessing at a level of granularity that isn’t necessary, and ultimately could prove to be unhealthy. And agree with blossom’s nuance about the LoRs. But OTOH I have known kids who thrive by competing and obsessing, so there’s that.
Lastly I will caution people to not assume that Yale’s process and thinking is duplicated at other highly selective schools.
The check boxes in the counselor’s school report also imply (subjective) rankings for academic achievement, extracurriculars, and overall.
True, but lots of counselors don’t fill that out…especially counselors from private schools and top publics.
My guess is that the guidance counselor is not going to make their check box decision based on freshman electives.
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Be aware that Arabic does require considerably more instruction and practice than Spanish for an English speaker to attain a similar level of proficiency (based on the length of courses at the DLI – 36 weeks for Spanish and 64 weeks for Arabic). So HS 4th year in Arabic likely leads to a proficiency level in Arabic similar to the level of proficiency in Spanish after HS 2nd year in Spanish.
If he does want to learn Arabic starting in high school, then it may affect college choices in that he will want to attend a college where he can continue to take higher level Arabic courses to try to get to a more useful level of proficiency.