Question about competitiveness of Musical Theatre programs

College Majors Musical Theater Majors
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Hello! I am helping a niece, junior in high school, with her college application process. Her dream is to get a BFA in Musical Theatre. She has a lot of experience time and commitment-wise in productions but typically in ensembles or very small roles. Would this mean she has no chance at an BFA program?

In looking through old threads I see a lot of debate about choosing between BA and BFA programs. So far we have been looking mostly at BFA programs and the acceptance rates are shockingly tiny! From seeing them, I would think that there are many who default to BAs simply because they are easier to get into. Is this not the case?

I do realize that some of the BA programs also require auditions but I was assuming (hoping!) that they are less competitive.

SO a few questions:
*what would you recommend for a kid who has all the love and enthusiasm and dedication but hasn’t yet achieved a high level?

*can anyone recommend some less selective schools in the Northeast or MidAtlantic areas of the US? She is an average student (decent grades, ok scores).

*any resources on selectivity of the programs? (So far niece is reaching out one-by-one)

Thank you so much for any advice!

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A lot to unpack here, so I will suggest joining MT parents on FB and spending a few weeks just reading and searching and going down rabbit holes to get a general education on the process. A few quick thoughts though:

  • roles mean nothing – audition room is what matters. many many kids get into BFA programs without leads or any roles.
  • ensemble work is a very specific and important skill and is not “less than” leads, despite how some high schools might treat those roles.
  • how is her training and talent? can she sing in tune and do harmonies?
  • How is she at auditioning? is she good at being accessible and authentic in the audition room?
  • is she a dancer-first? Dancers are kind of looked at differently in the audition room as they are providing a whole different skill set. (but note: you still must be able to sing in tune and have a nice tone, even if not trained in voice)
  • There are HUNDREDS of BFA programs out there! hundreds! Will she get into Michigan? probably not. but that is true for most students. But can she get into a BFA program if she wants to get a BFA? Assuming she meets a threshold level of musical ability, I think the answer is YES. Cast a wide net to include some of the less-competitive programs.
  • Yes the world of MT is competitive, but the numbers are also overstated for most MT programs because: 1. many parents do not include yield in their calculations (“400 applicants for 25 slots” can easily translate into an acceptance rate of 40% or 50% once you include yield…but many parents will freak out and think it’s 6% because they divide 25 by 400, which is absolutely wrong.) Very few schools have high yields, and as I said, most students aren’t really going to get into the tiny handful of those high-yield schools anyway. (and there is GREAT training to be had elsewhere at the HUNDREDS of other programs, so this is really not a huge problem at all). and 2. many schools do huge audition events and they count all of those students in their applicant number. (and note this means students can attend those consortium events and be seen by 45 schools, for example in one fell swoop, resulting in many programs expressing interest in the student, which then student can pursue further, or not.) 3. basic math: many many students get lots of offers – having 10-25 offers to choose from is pretty common – those students can only go to one school. The yield is VERY low for many, many schools. hundreds of schools need to fill their programs from students who might have 20 offers.
  • Bottom line: if she is musically inclined, she will most likely find a BFA home if she wants one, and if she isn’t super set on one specific school.
  • grades are far less important in BFA admissions than typical college admissions if her grades are solid, but not stellar. I wouldn’t worry. (some schools may be off the table such as the BA at Northwestern for example, but again…so what? there are so many great programs out there.)
  • Suggestion: audition early to get exposure to some smaller, less competitive programs and get an early offer. Pittsburgh Unifieds is an option that yielded a number of early offers for my daughter.

Hope that gives some context and hope! Truly it’s not as crazy as everyone loves to make it sound, in my opinion.

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Many many years ago I got my BFA in acting at a mid to upper level school. An audition was required and, 40 years ago in a mid-level school, it was a hard get. There were 350 applicants and they took 17 of us. It was tough. It is much harder these days.
Roughly half of us went on to have at least living wage careers in the business (a few did even better), but the process, cost, and prospects are not for the faint of heart.
Unless she really loves it - as in would die if she couldn’t do it - I would not recommend the BFA. It is so singularly focused that pivoting out of it into anything else is difficult. With a BA the competition is less to get in, and the broader based education it provides allows more room to maneuver if one needs a different means to support oneself.
That said, auditioning for a BFA, perhaps in multiple programs, might provide your niece a better assessment of her own skills. Getting in is a good sign; not making the cut is also a good sign, albeit that she might face a tougher row to hoe for a career.
However, if her passion is so great that she can’t imagine her life without doing it, then by all means encourage her. That deep love, combined with a grinding work ethic and grit, will help her through the difficulties that will most certainly litter her path.
Best of luck to her.

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Thank you so much for this incredibly helpful reply! You are so right that we were calculating admissions rate by applicants and spots. Will look at Pittsburgh Unifieds right away. Thank you!

Any other suggestions greatly appreciated!

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thanks for this assessment. very helpful

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I advise many students going into MT programs. BA vs BFA is ultimately dependent on how flexible the student wants to be with their non-major courses. If a student is all-in on their major, a BFA is totally suitable because they have fewer general ed requirements and more specific to the program. But if a student wishes to explore other fields or even double major, a BA allows them more options. Both of them can lead to successful careers in MT (and other areas.) The choice is what they wish to get out of their college experience. Keep in mind that the student also has to be admitted academically to the university as a whole. Unified auditions are a great way to get in front of a lot of schools at once but are also really expensive and you don’t get to see the campuses or interact with many faculty, so pros and cons there.
Here are some options popular with students pursuing less competitive schools:
-Western Carolina University
-Shenandoah University
-Hollins University
-Dean College
-Binghamton University

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Totally agree on the BA versus BFA benefit of being able to double major and have a broader education with a BA. And YES…a career can come from ANY education, or none at all.
I do think it is worth calling out that many students actually need 4 years of intense training to be competitive in the professional world. Some students, frankly, are so talented that they could major in accounting and then go out there and get booked professionally in musical theatre. My student, however, knew she needed the intense training of a BFA. She was frankly not bookable where she was with her training and talent at 17. so I’m just calling out that a career can happen from any kind of training…if you are talented enough. :). You know your kid --are they pretty much professional-level in their performing already or do they need four years of intensive training? Many BAs will simply not have the hours of training you’ll get in a BFA. (and note that some BA’s will actually have almost as many training hours as a BFA so make sure you look closely!)
I do want to call out that lumping all “unifieds” into one bucket is not accurate. The word “Unifieds” started out as the official “national unifieds” which operates one way, while other events, such as “Pittsburgh unifieds” have the word “unified” but they operate completely differently. Note that “national unifieds” do NOT cost anything “extra” and in fact are a huge money saver for students. and note that almost all unifieds do NOT mean “less interaction with faculty.” (In fact, in some cases it will be MORE, like with Pittsburgh.) Off-campus auditions will usually be the (mostly) SAME people, for probably the same amount of audition time (like 3-10 minutes). But, yes you wouldn’t see the campus – which honestly is the recommended way to go because it’s SO much cheaper, and it’s a LOT to travel to 25 schools for a 7 minute audition. (plus dance call at most schools, but note you would have that at national unifieds too).
The list suggested above is an interesting one – Rollins doesn’t have a BFA in MT unless that is new for next year? And Shenandoah is definitely NOT a “less competitive” program to get into. :).
I’ll double down on: join MT parents. I think truly that getting advice from people who have been through the process themselves is super important. The worlds of college admissions and MT college admissions are very different. My one caveat is: be aware that a lot of MT parents can buy into the “OMG it’s SOOO hard and competitive” narrative that is out there so take all the “stressful, low acceptance rates” posts with a bit of a grain of salt. There is space and training at lots of great BFA programs. It’s not as crazy as it sounds. :). Or, I should say, it doesn’t have to be. :).

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Hollins doesn’t have a BFA but has a BA with a concentration in Musical Theatre, so I was giving that as an alternate option since she’s considering both. Shenandoah has admitted every one of our students that have applied to the MT program (total of 17) in the last three years where other schools didn’t, which is how I’m basing my suggestion.
Unifieds of any type cost a lot of time and money and are not for everybody. You’re right that they aren’t all the same, but I stand by my pros/cons statement.

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Appreciate the debate here. FWIW, we were told 3% admissions rate for Shenendoah.

And thanks for including BFA and BA. My niece wants, or thinks she wants a BFA, but I am not sure she has thought through all the different angles. Learning a lot here.

And requested to join FB group! :slight_smile:

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This is certainly my understanding.

I agree totally.

My knowledge in this area is limited. However one daughter was very good at music, and at one point was very committed to music. She had a sign “music = life” on the wall in her bedroom. She was in a four person a capella group, and one of the other people in the group went on to get a degree in musical theater. At least for him making a career out of musical theater appears to be more of a challenge compared to getting accepted to a strong program and graduating with a bachelor’s degree.

Also, while my daughter was still intending to major in music we visited a professor of music who we know, who introduced us to another professor who had originally been his student, had graduated with a bachelor’s degree in voice, had gone on to be a dancer and singer on Broadway, and had discovered that the pay is low, New York is expensive, and you get tired of singing the same songs every night. This particular person had gone back to university to get a PhD, and was a professor of music at the time that we talked to her (and had a good job in a beautiful location with moderate living costs and was doing well).

The same daughter then went on a music tour of Europe and discovered that she too got tired of playing the same songs every day and that she did not like the travel. She switched directions (while still in high school) and is now two months away from being a DVM (perhaps another path that is not for the faint of heart).

Another relative graduated from a well known school as a dance major. She is being successful as a dancer, including both dancing and teaching. She has at times taken a job as a cook in a restaurant so I doubt that the dancing part pays all that well.

I would avoid debt for any bachelor’s degree related to music or dance or musical theater. If the student does take on any debt, assume that the parents will end up paying it off.

If you wanted to look a bit further to the north, there are a few small schools in Canada which might be worth looking at. Bishop’s University in Lennoxville Quebec is one option (some knowledge of French might be needed to graduate – they can teach this). Acadia University in Nova Scotia is very good for music, although I do not know whether they have a bachelor’s degree specifically in musical theatre. The small universities in eastern Canada tend to be relatively reasonably priced for international students although I am not sure what they currently cost (keep the exchange rate in mind).

When one daughter was considering majoring in music I wasn’t too worried about university admissions because I thought that getting accepted to a bachelor’s degree program was going to be easier compared to actually making a living after graduating with a bachelor’s degree. I still think that this is true.

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I agree. MT is really not a marketable career choice. It’s fine to major in, but be sure you have a double major or something marketable as a backup. I know someone who majored in MT, didn’t find an acting gig, then went to law school and makes a good living.

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A great example that a BFA MT is a college degree that still allows for many future careers and pivots! :raising_hands::raising_hands::raising_hands:

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Only if you DON’T do MT. It makes a decent pre-law degree. I usually recommend a double major in something like business. This way, there’s a marketable future.

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Would you say that a BA is more “marketable”? Or are you recommending that, in either case, students have a double major?

(Personally I am a big believer in a liberal arts education but I know not everyone is)

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I think my point is that it’s a college degree that still sets you up for life options. Lots of people pivot later to do something other than exactly the major they chose at the age of 18.
:+1::+1:

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I agree !

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delete

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Pretty crass, based on your experience with one “person you knew”. Unless you are a performer, a parent of a performer, you can’t possibly understand the mindset of them and making suggestions like that are just cruel. One could say that Computer Programming is a bad degree given the advent of AI… but no one is saying that.

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It’s not just about BFA vs. BA; it’s about breadth and depth of offering both within the major and outside of it; the degree of flexibility for the student to carve his or her own path vs. a very regimented / strict offering; and the degree to which the student has a range of electives they can make regardless of which path they choose.

NYU Tisch School of the Arts, I recommend be one of the programs someone consider unless they know they don’t want to be in New York City for college.