<p>SO if you have a guy on the ground, you are basically sitting on him, he needs five shots, that FIVE, to the head?</p>
<p>I doubt the number of bullets is of any significance given that most law enforcement agencies use automatic or semi-automatic weapons.</p>
<p>One shot to the head is too many, given the fact that the suspect was on the ground and therefore apprehended. I understand the so-called “risk” that the suspect could have had a concealed bomb (he didn’t), and could have somehow detonated it if he weren’t shot … but that rationale is going to apply to every “suspect” the police target. A “shoot-to-kill” policy is martial law, with summary executions taking the place of the rational administration of law and justice. A “suspect” is exactly that - a person that may or may not be a criminal or a terrorists. If the policy is shoot first, ask questions later, then there are going to be a lot of innocent people who die - or at least people who are innocent of terrorism, since ordinary criminals like burglars & drug dealers are equally likely to try to run from police.</p>
<p>You can’t take chances with suspected suicide bombers, a decision has to be made in a split second. </p>
<p>I wouldn’t like to be in the position of deciding in a second whether to kill the suspect or let them explode themselves taking other people with them.</p>
<p>Natoar23, you are clearly correct.</p>
<p>CGM, it has been learned that it is “shoot to kill” or nothing, because suicide bombers will detonate if only wounded. The police identified themselves and ordered him to stop–what were they to think when he kept running after repeatedly being instructed to stop? They had no choice, if they were to protect the passengers on the subway.</p>
<p>The police were wrong. The facts bear that out - they killed an innocent man. It took a matter of days after they implemented their shoot-to-kill policy before they killed an innocent person. So far they haven’t shot and killed any guilty people. The odds are they will continue to kill innocent people, just as innocent children and families are being shot up in cars in Iraq again and again because they are mistaken for possible suicide bombers. </p>
<p>There’s always risk. What separates a democracy from a fascist police state is the point where the balance is struck between allowing some risk and maintaining civil liberties.</p>
<p>Five shots to the head when you believe you’re dealing with a terrorist who you must prevent from detonating a bomb demonstrates fire discipline. Two double-taps and one for certainty. It would occur inside of about 2 seconds. Someone without training would have emptied a whole magazine in such a stressful situation.</p>
<p>
Everything I’ve read indicates there is no new “shoot-to-kill” policy, only new circumstances in London. It’s certainly a tragedy that this person did so much to make the police think he was a threat.</p>
<p>So they chase a guy down cause he came from a certain building in a big coat, and police in plain clothes basically sat on him and shot him in the head…and he was totally innocent…And, he was followed for awhile to see if he would lead them to other suspects, but he decided to ride the tube…big mistake I guess… he ran, I might to if a bunch of guys were chasing me with guns</p>
<p>In Italy, the US has snatched people off of the streets…then those people go somewhere…no one is sure where…that is real</p>
<p>In Ireland, the Americans can know “arrest” Irish citizens for any reason and take them…</p>
<p>This is pretty scary</p>
<p>
CGM–do you not get tired of this? Please.</p>
<p>I put “arrest” in quotes, and I should have finished it by saying take them for questioning…that was an error on my part</p>
<p>Treaty gives CIA powers over Irish citizens</p>
<p>Irish Examiner | July 22 2005</p>
<p>US INVESTIGATORS, including CIA agents, will be allowed interrogate Irish citizens on Irish soil in total secrecy, under an agreement signed between Ireland and the US last week. </p>
<p>Suspects will also have to give testimony and allow property to be searched and seized even if what the suspect is accused of is not a crime in Ireland. </p>
<p>Under ‘instruments of agreement’ signed last week by Justice Minister Michael McDowell, Ireland and the US pledged mutual co-operation in the investigation of criminal activity. It is primarily designed to assist America’s so-called ‘war on terror’ in the wake of the September 11 atrocities. </p>
<p>The deal was condemned yesterday by the Irish Council for Civil Liberties (ICCL) as “an appalling signal of how the rights of Irish citizens are considered by the minister when engaging in international relations”. The ICCL said it appeared to go far beyond even what has been agreed between EU countries.</p>
<p>On signing the agreement, the minister said that "the international community must do everything it can to combat terrorism with every means at its disposal.</p>
<p>“Ireland will not be found wanting,” he added. </p>
<p>The treaty will give effect to agreements on Mutual Legal Assistance and Extradition signed by the EU and the US in June 2003. These are aimed at building on mutual assistance and extradition arrangements. </p>
<p>Although the Department of Justice insists that the arrangement merely updates existing agreements, it goes much further. The US may ask Irish authorities: </p>
<p>To track down people in Ireland. </p>
<p>Transfer prisoners in Irish custody to the US. </p>
<p>Carry out searches and seize evidence on behalf of the US Government. </p>
<p>It also allows US authorities access to an Irish suspect’s confidential bank information. The Irish authorities must keep all these activities secret if asked to do so by the US. </p>
<p>The person who will request co-operation is US Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, the man who, as White House counsel, instigated the notorious ‘torture memo’ to US President George W Bush which advised how far CIA agents could go in torturing prisoners. The person to whom the request is sent is the Minister for Justice. </p>
<p>About 20,000 immigrants, who have not been charged with any crime, are currently in prison in the US. In two recent US Supreme Court cases, the US Government argued that US citizens could be imprisoned indefinitely without charge if the president designated them as “enemy combatants”. </p>
<p>ICCL director Aisling Reidy said: "An extraordinary aspect to this treaty is, despite its scope and its potential to violate basic constitutional and human rights, that all this happened without debate or transparency. </p>
<p>“To agree to give such powers to a government which has allowed detention of its own citizens without access to a lawyer for over a year, which has legitimised Guantanamo Bay and the interrogation techniques there, without public debate, is an appalling signal of how highly or not the rights of Irish citizens are considered by the minister when engaging in international relations.”</p>
<p>The Department of Justice said it was wrong to say the treaty happened without debate, as the agreements update and supplement existing arrangements, and the EU-US agreement has been scrutinised by the Oireachtas four times since December 2002. </p>
<p>A spokesperson also rejected that the measures go beyond what was agreed between EU countries. </p>
<p>Legislation will be required to give effect to some elements of the Mutual Legal Assistance Instrument. The necessary provisions will be contained in the Criminal Justice (Mutual Assistance) Bill which Mr McDowell expects to publish shortly.</p>
<p>Naotoar, I read The Times, The Independent and the Guardian and I think you’ve got the details slightly wrong. The man was followed from the house, onto the bus. When he approached the tube station, the officers got permission to “use whatever force necessary”. That’s when the ‘chase’ started-- at the tube station. </p>
<p>Presumably CCTV and witnesses will verify that the officers were clear in their instructions. The Brazilian tripped on his way into the carriage and witnesses say the officer was sitting on his back when he ‘unloaded’ five shots into his head. </p>
<p>There wasn’t time for a two second check under the jacket? </p>
<p>While I agree there may be justifiable cause, I think this incident warrants the soul-searching that is happening. Are Londoners prepared to live like Israelis? I hope not. </p>
<p>In truth, as stressed as they are about the bombings, the police have been less than forthcoming about this incident, allowing the man to be identified as ‘one of the bombers’ then altering that to ‘definitely linked to the bombers’. In my mind, there is a good chance the armed, casually dressed men did not clearly identify themselves. They were in panic mode and they had permission to kill.</p>
<p>My guess is that an officer will be demoted to a desk job.</p>
<p>Ahhhh ha. My guess was right. Some witnesses say there was no clear warning issued. Here’s the latest from The Times <a href=“The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines”>The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines;
<p>The police should not be stressed, I find that inexecusable</p>
<p>My Mom was pepper sprayed along with babies and many others in Portland Oregon for not failing to move fast enough…they were corralled into a place and couldn;t figure out how to leave during a peaceful protest, when the police yelled at them and they looked to see where to go and the police sprayed everybody…the police lost the lawsuit, especially the pepper spraying of babies at a peaceful march, they overreacted and were stressed…I thought they were trained…</p>
<p>And no, I am not tired of it…did I make an error in my reporting, I made one, it was not totally clear, so hopefully this will clear it up - the article above</p>
<p>
ER doctors and nurses shouldn’t be stressed, either, but such is life. Nor should firefighters, soldiers, EMTs…Do you not get tired of posting such things?</p>
<p>These guys were slowly tracking the individual, the individual ran from out of uniform men with guns saying stop, and he fell down, was basically sat on and shot in the head. So either its a shot to kill policy, and ask questions later, or the police are stressed out…it can’t be both</p>
<p>Either way, its pretty scary, if I was being chased like that and I didn’t see any uniforms, I might have run too. And once I was on the ground, being held down, I would hope they would at least pat me down</p>
<p>In NYC today, a bus was stopped and everyone searched cause a group of guys with “bulging” pockets got on…</p>
<p>“In NYC today, a bus was stopped and everyone searched cause a group of guys with “bulging” pockets got on…”</p>
<p>Welcome to the real world.</p>
<p>The three officers were stood down and disarmed-- pending a thorough investigation.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1707466,00.html[/url]”>The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines;
<p>
As it should be, in our world. Wouldn’t count on that happening in Osamaland, though.</p>
<p>tut tut driver. Osamaland? And you’re baiting cgm for being ridiculously strident? Ugh.</p>
<p>Is that like Disneyland?</p>
<p>Yes, except that “Ibn al Goofy” chops your head off when you go through the “Pirates of the Middle East” ride if the 82nd Airborne isn’t there to protect you.</p>