<p>I agree. My office was collectively mentoring and counseling our HS extern this spring. My co-worker, an HBCU grad, thought an HBCU would be ideal for this student, but finances were a problem; I thought that a local public school that is majority minority would be a great fit. I think she would have faced overwhelming culture shock at the state flagship that she’ll be better able to handle as a junior transfer after gaining confidence and experience at a local school. </p>
<p>Should I have pushed her to attend a school with a better academic rep? The HBCU’s academic reputation is at the lower end of public schools in the state. She’d probably be one of the best-prepared students in her class. I wouldn’t have made the same recommendations if she were white. But I honestly thought this student would benefit most from a school where she’s likely to become a leader and an academic star.</p>
<p>I’m certain there are tons of racist GC’s reflected in the study. Why should GC’s be any different from cardiologists and social workers and every other class of humans who aren’t immune from racism? But once in a while, there’s a good reason not to push a kid toward the most challenging school.</p>
<p>Here is a description of the methodology used by the study from the Chronicle of Higher Article I cited in my OP above:</p>
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<p>This methodology controls for the effect marite describes above, since there was no correlation between the race and income of a particular hypothetical profile considered by a given GC and race and incomes of the students who attended that GC’s school. </p>
<p>All GC’s surveyed received the same student profiles, and there was just a random rotation of which students were designated as having which race, gender, income, etc. in the packets sent to different GCs.</p>
<p>In any event, I would imagine that the study was picking up unconscious discrimination rather than deliberate discrimination.</p>
<p>Thanks for the clarification, Wisteria. I’ll try to see if I can get hold of a copy of that article. I wonder whether there was a profile done of the GCs, eg, what type of school (and location) the GCs were at. Because, although they might not be intending to discriminate among the students whose profiles they were given, their advice could easily be informed by their experience at their particular schools with their particular cohorts of students. </p>
<p>One of my S’s schoolmates went to Xavier in NOLA. It turned out that her mother was a graduate of the school. I don’t think it was on the radar screen of many of our hs. GCs.</p>
<p>Because IMHO, race still matters in America. I don’t think an HBCU offers the same set of benefits to a shy white kid that it offers to a shy black kid. I don’t think a 90% white school in a 99% white rural town poses the same set of challenges to those two kids.</p>
<p>In other words, I don’t believe it’s helpful for me to make a race-blind recommendation to send a student to live in Empty Cornfield, Illinois, where she’s extremely unlikely to have a race-blind experience.</p>
<p>“I had a foster kid, with income lower than many of these AA students, who received a full scholarship to Princeton in engineering.”</p>
<p>Did you mean that the student was ACCEPTED at Princeton and had low-enough EFC to receive complete need-based aid or are you stating that he/she received a merit-based engineering scholarship to Princeton? If the latter, then when was this? I thought Princeton does not provide merit-based aid.</p>
<p>The former. (It was in the 80s, so I have no clue as to what their “merit” policies were at that time - though, as you know, I view ALL scholarships as merit scholarships, as in if they find enough merit, they provide the funds they think necessary to get you to attend.)</p>
<p>The important point is to arm the student with enough knowledge by presenting all of the options so that they can make up their own mind. There could be good reasons to inform the student as to some advantages/disadvantages based of particular schools based on race (URM acceptance advantage, scholarships, racial makeup, etc.) but the important point is to make sure they’re aware of all the possibilities. The problem we’ve seen in this thread and in the article is when the GC doesn’t present the appropriate options at all based on the GC’s idea of what would be ‘race-appropriate’ for them so the uninformed student doesn’t have a the information to make up their own mind. An example could be that a GC might not mention UCLA as a viable option to an AfAm because the GC knows there isn’t a high percentage of AfAms at the school and therefore might decide the student wouldn’t want to go there when in fact, the student might want to if they knew more about the school. </p>
<p>The GCs should provide the information and real non-biased options and not try to make the decisions for the student based on assumptions just due to the person’s race or the averge socio-economic makeup of the HS. There are outliers to any distribution and the GCs need to make sure they’re accommodated as well.</p>
<p>But it wasn’t just based on her race or the makeup of her high school. It came from working with her and knowing her well, and race is one facet of that. I don’t think it’s the same as categorically assuming that UCLA isn’t right for a black kid solely because she’s black. (I mean, I would have recommended a historically white LAC over Howard or FAMU for this student.)</p>
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<p>I don’t believe a good GC is just a fountain of facts laying options before the student. The GC will always have more information and experience than the student does, and an experienced opinion can be very valuable. I think there’s middle ground between making the decision for the kid and just laying out options with pros and cons, and that’s the ground I try to stay in. A well-placed “Ooo, I REALLY don’t think you’d be happy there” has its place in good counseling. This is especially valuable when you have a kid who says she doesn’t have a clue what she wants except to go to college.</p>
<p>while ultimately the student and his/her family must make the final decision, the GC cannot in good faith operate from a one size fits all approach in counseling students because each student comes with a different set of wants/needs. </p>
<p>For some students, money is a big consideration, they may be “too weathy” for FA, but “too poor” to be able fo afford full freight. the GC may steer them toward schools where they are likely to get merit aid.</p>
<p>Others may need a school close to home so they can be there to provide support for family members.</p>
<p>Some students are excellent student, but suffer from test anxiety so standardized testing may not accurately reflect their abilities. SAT optional schools may be able to show this student in the best light.</p>
<p>there are the kind of schools mentioned in the book A-schools for B students, Colleges that change lives, and Beyond the ivy league which may be excellent schools for certain students.</p>
<p>I know for my own kid, she has a specific list of things that she was looking for in a school. She really did not want a big school not too much more than 5000 undergrads. Study abroad and or exchange programs were very important to her. She wanted a school where there was a focus on undergrad eduction. While her school allowed them to choose 8 schools, by the time she really wittled down her list from an approach of if this is the only school you are accepted to, would you be happy to attend? She came up with a list of 7 schools; 1-ivy, 1- research university and 5 LACs (3 which were women’s colleges, which was really a suprise becasue she started out saying there was no way she would attend an ‘all girls’ school).</p>
<p>By non-biased I meant that assumptions shouldn’t be made simply because of a kid’s race or because the average for the school typically heads down a particular path. As I stated, the kid should be looked at individually and should have multiple options presented to them. The GC offering their opinion is fine but they shouldn’t hold back on info based on their assumptions. I keep saying ‘assumptions’ because many GCs don’t take or have the time to actually know the student well enough. An example is that I wouldn’t want someone to see a hispanic student, assume that the parents couldn’t afford a particular school, and then not bother to inform the student of the options because of those assumptions. It could be that the student’s parents aren’t really poor, that the student could obtain scholarships, that the student has a strong desire to attend a particular school, etc. </p>
<p>I think you and I are actually on the same page on the point.</p>
<p>When I was in HS, I graduated # 1 out of 650 in my graduating class; I met with my GC only once, and it was apparent that she had no clue what was going on. Hence, I had to do everything myself. Neither of my parents attended college, and it was certainly less convenient in those days to acquire info on different colleges (had to go to the public library to look at Peterson’s guides or something). I simply thought our GC was incompetent. I would not be surprised to find out today that many GCs are incompetent, but college/career information is much easier for parents and students to obtain. </p>
<p>If a student wants a GC to help in the college search process, then he needs to provide all necessary information. Even assuming the GC is well-informed, intelligent and hardworking (which may not be the case), the student and/or parents must provide some parameters to use in the search process. What does the HS student want out of life (money, academic challenge, opportunity to see a variety of places in the world)? And what resources are available (e.g., what is approximate EFC, what are parents WILLING to contribute, how much has student saved, etc.)?</p>
<p>These questions need to be addressed AT HOME, before meeting with your GC. The information needs to be clearly written down and some type of resume should be constructed, which should be provided to the GC. Otherwise, a GC will only be able to provide general info, based on SOME TYPE of generalization (either the average student in your class, neighborhood, or some other group). Some students in your school may be best suited for post-high school entry into armed services, peace corps, community college, university, entrepreneurial endeavors, etc. If a GC goes through every option with every student, it would be a waste of everyone’s time. In my opinion, students and parents should only use GCs as one additional source of info; the GC may not be better than simply consulting CC. </p>
<p>It is the GC’s job to provide info to students. It is the students’ and parents’ RESPONSIBILITY to look as many places as necessary to fully explore possibilities for a child’s future. Blaming a child’s post-high school choices on a GC is a very poor excuse, and even if you think it is a good excuse, it is still just an excuse. Ignoring and/or overcoming bad advice is always better than complaining about it.</p>
<p>I received this email from someone from a parent from the Quad City Urban League</p>
<p>Subject: Historically black Knoxville College Debt-free Policy</p>
<p>Historically black Knoxville College, in east Tennessee, has reduced its tuition from $5,000 to $1,400 per student including room, board, and books!</p>
<p>All you need is $600 for the enrollment deposit and $800 can be paid in four monthly installments of $200 each.</p>
<p>The program is funded by corporate sponsors and guarantees a college education where students graduate debt free.</p>
<p>Enrollment requirements include a high school diploma and a 2.0/4.0 scale. If your student has below a 2.0, but you know they are college material, they may be considered provided they get three letters of recommendation.</p>
<p>For educators who will support their potential, all interested students must immediately contact the admissions office at
Knoxville College by dialing 1-800-743-5669 or by applying on line at: </p>
<p>Hanna, you offer an interesting perspective. Yet, I believe the GC anecdotes provided by Black parents are compelling.</p>
<p>As you said, race still matters in America, more than most folks are willing to concede. But we should always try to make our advice specific to the individual, which I believe is what you and the Black parents are in agreement with. I mean, a Black college applicant may find quite a rewarding experience at Cornfield College or Wilderness U. I know a U of Pittsburgh fellow who spent two years as a exchange student at school in Green Bay WI and enjoyed it thoroughly, as one of the few Black men in town and who was not an athlete.</p>