"Race" in College Admission FAQ & Discussion 11

Applying to College
2021

@deeznuts What is the best applicant in your opinion? Given the fact that you are not a college admissions rep. Your argument that African Americans are just dumb or lazy is probably the same logic people used to justify slavery for hundreds of years. Socioeconomic factors such as income, wealth , health, education, resources available all effect a students performance on test day. When almost a third of African Americans live in poverty and most come from low income families and kids are most likely to be raised without a father, research has shown all of this regardless of race often leads to lower academic performance.

Medical schools should be promoting diversity, however most black students end up in historically black medical schools like Howard, Meharry, Morehouse that skew the numbers. Also African Americans aren’t favored overall as a group since they only have a 35% acceptance rate in comparison to Asians and Whites that have a +42% mean admit rate to medical school. Also African Americans are most likely to work in underserved communities in primary care fields, vast majority graduate and become board certified physicians so are well trained otherwise they won’t be doctors. The issue is not enough apply so there is a major shortage in black males in medical school.

" They are disregarded in their career, as many say “oh they only got into ___ cause he’s black”. "

Who cares what an ignorant person thinks, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. This is an absolutely pathetic argument. Overall, African American should be given a boost due to Socioeconomic disparities alone which are more prevalent among URMs than anyone else.

2022

@Ali1302 “Your argument that African Americans are just dumb or lazy”… Wait? When in the world did I say that?

“What is the best applicant in your opinion?” The applicant with the highest test scores/GPA with ECs, regardless of race. This seems like common sense. What would your admission process be like? I’m scared to find out.

“Socioeconomic factors such as income, wealth , health, education, resources available all effect a students performance on test day”. You’re making some bold statements buddy, but I need data. Also CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.

“Also African Americans aren’t favored overall as a group since they only have a 35% acceptance rate in comparison to Asians and Whites that have a +42% mean admit rate to medical school.” Asians & Whites have a higher GPA/MCAT. Check link below!
https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/157998/mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

Look at that data though. Let’s compare Asians & Blacks. An applicant with a 3.2-3.4 GPA & 24-26 MCAT: If you’re black you have a 59% of getting in a med school. If you’re Asian? 7%!

“Who cares what an ignorant person thinks, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. This is an absolutely pathetic argument.” Well it’s an argument brought up by AFRICAN AMERICAN supreme justice (it’s a pretty important job if you didn’t know) Clarence Thomas.

2023

@Ali1302

Another question, how do you evaluate RICH BLACK applicants. They do exist! (although you’re making every blacks sound like they’re poor & struggling.) Do they get a boost?

2024

@Waiting2exhale What are you talking about man? You edited it and still makes absolutely no sense.

2025

@deeznuts When you say best EC’s what exactly do you mean? Do you think you can measure such subjective factors? Also, you don’t think socioeconomic factors and the highschool you got to effect the type of EC’s you could take part in or your opportunities? What if you were living in poverty or in a low income home with a single mother?

Your need for data on this topic is surprising given the large number of studies done on socioeconomic factors and academic performance. Once racial segregation ended test scores went up, also wealth strongly correlates with test scores more so than IQ. Also note although test scores correlate with IQ it doesn’t make them IQ tests.

I’m well aware of MCAT and gpa grid statistics so please don’t bother pointing these out. Yes, black students with low scores may get a boost but you forgot to factor in historically black medical schools that have like a 80% to 90% african american entering class that greatly skew the numbers. I’m surprised any asian were admitted with such stats since there are so many asians with higher scores and those applying with these low scores make a small percentage of asian applicants. Also, the boost is mainly because African Americans are more likely to work in underserved areas and primary care. Diversity is also important in the medical field as it makes patients feel less isolated as they feel more comfortable when they are treated by their own kin. Those stats that you mentioned are probably high enough to ensure that a student could get through medical school and become a board certified physicians so it doesn’t mean their unqualified at all.

Finally, there aren’t many rich black kids that apply to college which probably make up an extreme minority of African American students. These kids I believe don’t get a massive boost at all and a lot of them end up at top 50 or 100 colleges that are easier to get into. Also about income and wealth disparities it’s a fact that the majority of African American households are either below the poverty line or low income. Only like 10% of African Americans households make over $100,000 in comparison to 32% of Asians and 21.4% of European Americans.

2026

@Ali1302 I go to a terrible high school, but I don’t get a boost. I live in an area of poverty but I don’t get a boost. Why is that?

“Treated by their own kin” should not be a factor when evaluating the future doctors of the world. Race won’t matter when a life is on the line.

Why Asians are being discriminated against. Is it because they’re too good?

And why are rewarding blacks for not succeeding in prior generations? The playing field is already leveled.

2027

@deeznuts No the playing field isn’t even at all. Socioeconomic and educational disparities among URMs is a fact. Honestly if you did live in poverty and managed to do considerably well then universities would give you a boost, mentioning a sob story on your essay would be a plus for your application regardless of race.

Unfortunately, studies have shown people would be more comfortable being treated by a doctors of their own race, also African Americans doctors are more likely to work in underserved communities and attempt to reduce healthcare disparities.

Asians aren’t being discriminated against at all they are overrepresented at every top university in America including Ivies, UCs, tech schools etc… Making up anywhere between 21% to +40% of students at these universities. Making such statements without sufficient evidence is really hurting your credibility and even for medicine Asians have a higher acceptance rate in comparison to URMs and end up making +30% of students at most top medical schools while URMS only make like 10%-12% in total.

2028

@Ali1302 You just pointed out a great point, the "sob story"essay is complete BS. Should not be considered. BTW I’m not Asian like you think

“African Americans doctors are more likely to work in underserved communities and attempt to reduce healthcare disparities” Another dumb yet bold point. Evidence plz

"Asians aren’t being discriminated against at all they are over-represented at every top university in America ". We already went over this. Asians are better applicants, in a SIGNIFICANT way.

Honestly, I’m bored of this. You obviously have no clue how society and humanity works. Do you even have any experience with people dealing with these oh so hard conditions?

I’m glad that affirmative action is gradually dying. First the UCs to Michigan, and it’s gonna keep going. People are waking up.

2029

@deeznuts “I’m glad that affirmative action is gradually dying. First the UCs to Michigan, and it’s gonna keep going. People are waking up.”

You’re going to have to wait a loooong time their buddy and no affirmative action isn’t going nowhere especially at private schools.

’ “African Americans doctors are more likely to work in underserved communities and attempt to reduce healthcare disparities” Another dumb yet bold point. Evidence plz’

This is simple to prove, one has to look at historically black medical schools to know this fact. Here’s a few articles:

Source 1: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/14/AR2010061404192.html

Source 2: http://theweek.com/articles/557426/racial-disparity-doctors-office-isnt-getting-better-might-actually-getting-worse

Here’s a research publication ranking medical schools by social mission, basically ranking them based on the number of graduates that work in underserved communities.

Source 3: http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=745836

The top 3 medical schools are historically black medical schools ( Moorehouse, Howard, Meharry) and then medical schools with the largest percentage of African Americans and URMs. Enough evidence for you?

“Honestly, I’m bored of this. You obviously have no clue how society and humanity works. Do you even have any experience with people dealing with these oh so hard conditions?”

I’m bored too, that I have to have exchanges with imbeciles such as yourself and yes I do have experience with students at hard conditions for a significant period of my life I was in a low ranked state school.

2030

Because racial and gender bias still exists in the educational environments of young kids, long before they’re thinking about college applications. It exists in rich school districts, as well as poor, in liberal as well as conservative. We set different expectations, bars, for girls and boys, for black kids and white kids.

I’m not sure why it’s assumed that colleges are obligated to admit the “smartest” applicants. Public state schools have a certain amount of obligation to support the families within the state; private schools have their own agendas. “Diversity” is just as valid a criteria as “high IQ”.

You seem to believe that society would be best served by entitling the highest-credentialed applicants to go to college. I disagree.

2031

@ScreenName48105 “We set different expectations, bars, for girls and boys, for black kids and white kids”. That’s exactly what we do in affirmative action and it’s unfair. It’s embarrassing minorities.

““Diversity” is just as valid a criteria as “high IQ”.” Great! Tell me when “diversity” cures cancer.

“Because racial and gender bias still exists”. Ok but what about Asians? I don’t understand, are they just too good for their own good? And reverse racism DOES exist.

“You seem to believe that society would be best served by entitling the highest-credentialed applicants to go to college. I disagree.” Yes, that’s exactly what I think. Why wouldn’t that be the case?

I can respect your opinion, but affirmative action is discrimination. That is not an opinion, it is a FACT

2032

@deeeznuts, you’re just playing a semantics game by throwing around phrases like “reverse racism” and “affirmative action is discrimination” and that’s fine since what you seem to be interested in is a debate.

I’m Asian, and I’m a woman who went to engineering school, a pretty OK one, when the ratio of men to women was 10:1 and all the boys assumed I got in with lesser stats. My son, a senior in high school, is graduating from the same school system I grew up in; a very good public school system in a well-educated college town. He has my “Asian” brains, but is athletic, and he’s black. I’ve seen both the race and gender variables from a lot of different perspectives.

Boys and girls, white and black kids, are given different expectations, encouragement, and resources in K-12 grades. If some colleges set different bars for admission based on the applicant’s backgrounds, it’s because they feel those bars reflect equivalent potentials, based on how well those kids did given the resources provided. For instance, one child is taught how to read as a 4yo, while another child as a 6yo. When they’re both 7yo, the first child may be a more advanced reader, but by 10yo, there’s often no difference.

“Affirmative action”, done right, is a way to give credit for that potential, to even out discrepancies in childhood environments. An ACT score of 30 in a high school where the average student is scoring 20 has more potential than the same score in a school where the average is 31.

Because, at least in this country, we believe that everyone should be given the opportunity to grow to their potential, not just those who happen to have had the most resources at their disposal as a 17 yo. What you’re describing is a caste system.

Colleges have a right (and responsibility) to determine their own objectives. Clearly, not all of them will have the objective to “cure cancer”. If you want a college with your criteria, you need to start one.

2033

@ScreenName48105 well said! I’ve said the same in many posts over the years. If some people believe that colleges should only admit students with the highest scores (IQ, grades, etc.) they need to start one. Because none of the top tier institutions in this country agree with that.

2034

@ScreenName48105 , I think you and @deeeznuts are saying much the same thing. AA, like your experience in engineering school, lessens the achievements of AA recipient. Why do we assume that a minority student was admitted only because of their race? It’s because of the caustic effects of AA. Eliminating AA would remove any doubt that the person was their because of their own achievements.

The other, subtle issues with expectations are not something that colleges can fix. It’s up to the parents and school district to change the culture within the school. Schools already have issues in elementary grades with anti-boy bias because of their more rambunctious behavior ; sometimes it is pretty blatant. (We pulled both our boys out of public schools because of these types of issues and the relentless PC indoctrination endemic to them). Kids who are under qualified are going to fail anyway in STEM fields where it is difficult to catch up.

The fact is that Asians work harder regardless of their economic circumstances and quality of school system. That trait gets passed on regardless even if diluted by cultural intermarriage - or maybe strengthened with say, a German/Chinese couple (using stereotypes). There are a lot more mixed race families (like yours and mine) and this singular racial identification - imposed by politicians - is becoming irrelevant. It’s interesting to me that my wife, who is white, argues for AA, but me, the Hispanic looking fellow, argues against.

So IMO , AA punishes those who work hardest. Texas has a good compromise system, with a certain percentage of kids auto-admitted to the UT system by rank and the rest taken from the highest scoring pool. But it is not up to colleges to correct the deficiencies of K-12 systems. That is the fault of the people who continue to support poor performance through their votes and taxes. There are lots of alternatives these days - virtual schools, charters, low cost religious schools, etc. that work better and are cheaper.

I fail to see the advantages of race based ‘diversity’. Only thought based diversity matters and we have precious little enough of that on campuses these days. Women are automatically discriminated against because of the disparity in gender of college applicants if the college wants to maintain a 50-50 balance.

Our country’s international competitiveness depends upon nurturing the very smartest, hardest working people we can and AA is yet another barrier to that. Highly resourced people are often that way for a reason and their intelligence is passed on to their children.

2035

@TooOld4School Thank you for extending my point. I agree with everything you said. I mentioned earlier in the thread but Supreme Court justice Clarence Thomas (who is black) has the same opinion on AA. I really love the UT system as well.

And to you @ScreenName48105 “An ACT score of 30 in a high school where the average student is scoring 20 has more potential than the same score in a school where the average is 31.”.
Does going to a bad high school give you a boost? Because I go to a school where the average SAT is around 1300 (out of 2400). Dropout rate is over 25%. I don’t feel disadvantaged at all, and I’m doing just fine.

2036

Affirmative action only exists in top-tier institutions because of business and reputation. Harvard doesn’t want to be labeled as the “school where all the rich white kids go”.

2037

No, we’re not. My point was that I know exactly what it feels like to have other students assume that I was less qualified but this assertion that minorities, as a whole, are hurt by this is ridiculous. I know. My achievements weren’t lessened at all. I was prepared for college – the boys shut up pretty quickly when they realized I was one of the few kids who started college with a bunch of AP credits (this wasn’t the norm back in the stone ages). Really, the important thing was that we (women) were THERE. 20 years prior, they didn’t even admit women. Today, 30 years later, one of my college mate’s daughter is attending the same school. Women’s credentials are rarely questioned anymore. It’s a long process.

Don’t get me wrong, trying to improve the racial gap in our education system with college admissions is far less than ideal. We should clearly be addressing this in K-12. But we (as in “Americans” in general) like to point our fingers at the other guy for all our problems… and these gaps are usually attributed to black kids living in (a) poor neighborhoods, (b) urban neighborhoods and (c) with apathetic parents. I used to believe that too, until I saw how my son was treated in the same school I used to go to, in an affluent, liberal suburban neighborhood. My parents will tell you that he and I are a lot alike and, yet, I was an Asian girl and he’s a black boy. There was a world of difference in how we were steered by the system and our teachers. It was shocking. I learned a LOT.

So, just because a program doesn’t benefit YOU, it has no value? So much of your commentary rings of “me, me, me”. Social issues and solutions are really about benefiting the group as a whole; pointing to one person it didn’t help, or one black person (e.g. Clarence Thomas) who disagrees doesn’t discredit the entire effort.

2038

@ScreenName48105 "So much of your commentary rings of “me, me, me” Great point! Especially right after you spent an entire paragraph talking about your college experience! And then another long paragraph talking about your son!

" I used to believe that too, until I saw how my son was treated". How exactly was he treated?

“pointing to one person it didn’t help, or one black person (e.g. Clarence Thomas) who disagrees doesn’t discredit the entire effort.” It’s not just me or Clarence Thomas that disagrees with affirmative action. That’s why it’s gradually dying.

The fact of the matter is, affirmative action is hurting both minorities and Asians. Minorities aren’t viewed the same in college and career, as people blame affirmative action for their success. And many minorities are actually worthy of their success. And as for Asians/whites, they are being directly discriminated against.

2039

@deeznuts, OK, whatever. You clearly think your opinions are “facts”, so there really isn’t much point in trying to discuss other perspectives. But, please, stop trying to justify your opinions as being better for minorities. Just speak for yourself… “whites are being discriminated against”, right? LOL

2040

Take the L & leave @ScreenName48105