Pizzagirl “Colleges prize diversity.”
Did you even read the link about W&L? It appears that at least one college does not value diversity but actively discriminates.
Canuckguy Nice link.
jym626 you are in denial that discrimination exists and that Asian-Americans take the brunt of it in the college admission process, hence your tired of those who point out the hypocrisy.
Colleges that discriminate use the mantra of diversity to cover their tracks and some colleges such as Washington and Lee that lacks diversity use “holistic” admission policy to cover their tracks. Since holistic is opaque, it is generally a good cover.
“So maybe they’re not equally qualified” So which racial groups do you consider more or less qualified? I’m very interested to know.
If that quote isn’t racism, I have no idea what is.
Heck, I even accounted for URM recruitment in my statement. Asians and whites, two groups not considered URMs, should be admitted at roughly equal rates, LOWER THAN the rates for URMs, but Asians are consistently admitted at lower rates than whites.
voice of reason,
Boy oh boy you took a massive leap from my comment that this thread has been rehashing the same thing over and over to somehow thinking you know what I think or that I am in denial. You should go out for the long jump team with the ability to leap like that.
jym626 then what did you mean by “This gets so tiresome. Round and round and round…” given that we were discussing possible discrimination by colleges in the admission process?
“Asians are consistently admitted at lower rates than whites.”
Because far more unqualified Asians apply than unqualified whites, due to family pressures and enormous lack of realism, combined with desperation (relative to underperformance of any such student, or simply lack of potential.) Since I work so closely with both and have long conversations with the parents and have intimate access to the students’ records, I know whereof I speak. I’ve never had a 3.4 UW or a 3.7 UW Caucasian apply to even one Ivy, let alone all of them. This year one of my 3.3 Asian students applied to a top 20 school of all things in the EARLY Round, apparently so she could be even more visibly (negatively) compared, which of course she was, and Rejected in the Early Round. It’s a blind priority and panic syndrome which bears little correlation with the real world of what is considered in college admissions. I’ve been told by many Chinese families that “not to try” (no matter how unrealistic) is a source of shame in the community.
So when one’s strategy for college applications is driven by what one’s community thinks of you, one is setting oneself up for disappointment.
Lol ok so filial piety and loyalty to a tightly bound community is a godawful thing (in individualistic American eyes) despite working for tens of times longer than America has been around and Asian applicants are overall less qualified than white applicants. Good to know all my preconceptions of CC have been unquestionably confirmed.
epiphany Do you have any research or data to support your blanket statement that “far more unqualified Asians apply than unqualified whites” other than your anecdotal personal experience of the one Asian 3.3 student applying to a top 20 school? If not, you have some serious explaining to do why you feel Asians are prestige grubbers with, in your words, “lack of realism, combined with desperation.” WOW!!
jym626 What is the caption of this thread?! Of course the same issues will surface again and again, that is because this thread is about RACE and COLLEGE ADMISSIONS. Why you are still reviewing this thread if you know all about this issues and it tires you, that is perplexing to me.
I and many others have not been on CC but for a fraction of the time of those with 10,000+ posts who have lingered on CC. We are voicing our opinions like you did when you were new to CC many years ago and to gain information for ourselves and our children.
If you are tired of hearing the opinions and arguments of others then you have the power to ignore this thread. No one is forcing you to participate or read or do any action that you do not want to do. But the fact that you chime in and say things like “This gets so tiresome. Round and round and round…”, it is a commentary of your view on Race and the College Admission process. Given you stated this while others were discussing possible discrimination of Asian Americans in the college admission process, it leads at least me to believe that you think that Asian’s are whining about not getting a bigger piece of the college admission pie. If I am wrong about your views, then please correct me, but don’t insist that those new to CC be gagged from giving their opinion and views because you have over 38,000 posts.
VofR - the inverse of your hypothesis is probably true at some excellent schools. CalTech, UCs, Carnegie Mellon, Harvey Mudd, etc. All these very good schools have >25% Asian enrollment based on IPEDs data.
vor - your projection if your beliefs is quite compelling.
Since you are relatively new to cc (welcome) it might be helpful to read the thread in its entirety. How many posts I have had in over 10 years here is of no relevance, so attacking it like its a bad thing is also not conducive to a conversation. It would be refreshing to hear something new that could add to this well worn discussion.
“jym626 you are in denial that discrimination exists and that Asian-Americans take the brunt of it in the college admission process, hence your tired of those who point out the hypocrisy.”
If I am an adcom at an elite school that draws largely from, say, Massachusetts, and I’d really like to get some kids from western states, let’s say Idaho, if I discriminate in favor of the Idaho kids, does that mean that Massachusetts kids “take the brunt of it”?
You are completely missing the distinction between “I’m trying to get more of A” and “I’m explicitly trying to limit the number of B.” One is inclusive, the other is exclusive.
jym626 Only calling it as I sees it. Not sure what you are referring to “It would be refreshing to hear something new that could add to this well worn discussion.” Has there ever been anything about Washington and Lee having a discriminatory admission practice against Asian’s before on this thread? Unlike many of the other elite universities that can claim the need to promote diversity on its campuses for its Asian enrollment data, Washington and Lee, does not have a diverse student body, yet its admission data for Asian Americans is not too flattering. Wouldn’t this constitute bringing something new to the discussion.
Pizzagirl You realize that any admission system will inevitably exclude one group or individual over another when there is limited space available. So in your hypothetical, the answer is Yes, if you decide to favor Idaho kids in favor of Massachusetts kids, then Massachusetts kids will take the brunt of it.
Now if you take this policy because you value diversity of having kids from Idaho, then one has made a value judgment as to the merits of have this type of diversity on campus. Good or bad, this judgment affects one group positively and one group negatively.
Generally elite schools base its admission decisions on merit, except when it doesn’t.
The bottom line is that colleges can build classes that meet their institutional needs or goals. Two choices- take it or leave it. If they think a class will be better with more left-handed tuba players or red headed poets, that is their choice.
But left-handed tuba players/red-headed poets aren’t racial groups that have been elevated/discriminated against by society. Nice try.
Again, @pizzagirl didn’t answer my question - which racial groups do you view as more or less qualified, since each racial group is “not equally qualified”?
I’m sure there are plenty of kids of every race who apply even though there’s no hope for them stats-wise, but it’s only Asians who are singled out and demeaned because the Asian culture of filial piety and advancement through education is apparently anathema.
well, in this 11th iteration of this many- many-years -old thread that was supposed to be about self identifying ethnicity, it is once again about accusations of discrimination by schools building their classes as they see will best fit their institutional needs looking at a holistic view of their applicant pool.
jym You are right that schools can shape the classes it wants, except it can’t discriminate any protected classes. Last I checked RACE is a protected class and Asians are a protected minority.
I am amazed that you would say that Racial Discrimination in the admission process is OK because “schools building their classes as they see will best fit their institutional needs looking at a holistic view of their applicant pool.” Your position is a major FAIL. For this comment, it was clear that your prior posts were meant to convey exactly what I thought you were saying. WOW!!! I hope you some day get out of the proverbial cave and turn to the light.
“I’m sure there are plenty of kids of every race who apply even though there’s no hope for them stats-wise, but it’s only Asians who are singled out and demeaned because the Asian culture of filial piety and advancement through education is apparently anathema.”
(1) filial piety is not “anathema.” It simply does not carry the weight in United States institutions that it does in China, Korea, etc. I wonder if some people understand what country they’re in. We are not a country founded on filial piety, but on very different values.
(2) One day, perhaps far into the future, Asian American families in this country will begin to understand that they have never had a monopoly on “advancement through education,” not to mention hard work. Plenty of Caucasian American families have always pulled all the stops out for education, sacrificing other things relative to that priority. This is the same transparent racist dichotomy that posits, Caucasians lazy, Chinese hard-working. Please get over your cultural prejudices. I believe that some on this thread have many more than they begin to be aware of. It is the precise attitude of shock, disbelief, and denial which Southern Whites had in this country when confronted with African Americans who were capable, talented, educated. (‘They can’t be qualified for this job/position/admission offer, because only Whites work hard,’ etc.)