florida26 Even if it means that vast majority who are given huge admission preference at elite schools are at the bottom of their class, fail to graduate in majors where the highest incomes are, have the stigma of being a racial preference admit with many leaving college with huge student loan debt.
To be clear, your idea of Utopia is nice, but in the real world, racial preference is not working to help those you wish to help by giving huge racial preferences in the college admissions. You are the type of person I discussed earlier that has good intentions but the policies that you support only harms most of the groups you want to help.
AA works in cases where qualified people are given opportunities, but doesn’t work in competitive environments such as colleges where kids compete against other kids for grades.
Would you support AA for Athletic teams? Would you support giving Asian athletes huge preferences to be on Basketball, Football or any other sports teams? Would you support Olympic competitions to be determined in an “holistic” way rather than on actual achievement? Should the outcome of a 100M race between Usain Bolt and an Asian/white runner be adjusted so the Asian/white runner is given a 1 second head start to level the playing field?
Ultimately, merit should not be based upon the color of one’s skin but by what one has achieved and huge racial preferences in the college admission process is not the answer to your perceived injustices to your preferred groups.
@WOWWTFBBQ
I consider myself as part of the “left” but am opposed to affirmative action. Doesn’t always work that way, and let’s not bring partisan politics into this.
WOW where did you get your talking points Fox News? Fabrizio you need to try and be more careful with your facts. The fact is Asians as a group support affirmative action. They know what it means. I am attaching a quote from December 19,2014 by Tara Yarlagadda that appropriately summarizes the position of the majority of Asian Americans
"The lawsuits against Harvard and UNC-Chapel Hill allege that applicants, particularly Asian students, are being denied admission to universities on the basis of their race or ethnicity due to affirmative action policies requiring stronger qualifications from Asian Americans than other minority groups. Those initiating the lawsuit claim to speak for the entire Asian American demographic, even though Asian Americans constitute a diverse group of individuals from all walks of life. In fact, the majority of Asian Americans favor admissions policies that expand diversity in universities.
In similar news, a small, but vocal group of Asian Americans recently succeeded in blocking State Constitutional Amendment 5 (SCA-5) – a measure intended to restore affirmative action in higher education in California – believing the proposed referendum would adversely affect all Asian American students.
But such efforts have not gone unnoticed by the Asian American community. Asian American students and civil rights groups are fighting back in full force. The UNC Asian American Students Association (ASA) recently issued a statement opposing Students for Fair Admissions’ claims, stating that “UNC ASA favors admission policies that ensure diversity, which is integral for the learning experience on college campuses. … Additionally, the filing fails to present a holistic portrayal of UNC’s Asian student community, which is comprised of diverse ethnicities and spans an array of socio-economic backgrounds.” In response to the Fisher case, Asian Americans Advancing Justice | AAJC and 70 other Asian American and Pacific Islander organizations filed a legal brief in 2012 to voice their support of UT-Austin’s admissions policies.
Furthermore, the hashtag #IAmNotYourWedge has gone viral as Asian Americans, frustrated with their community being co-opted by the mainstream media and other prominent figures, are speaking out.
The University of Wisconsin-Madison could be the next target of Students for Fair Admissions’ strategy. With such a barrage of attacks on access to higher education, we need a solid show of support from all groups to weather these attacks and come out stronger in the campaign for equal opportunity and diversity in colleges across the United States".
Isn’t it amazing, just absolutely amazing, that a “small, but vocal group of Asian Americans” has so much political power as to force a few Asian American California State legislators to block a bill? Wow, are we talking about some major donors here? Blackmail, perhaps? When Asian Americans as a whole are hardly known as major power brokers in politics, it boggles the mind that a “small, but vocal group” can have this much influence.
I think what’s far more likely is that the group is much larger than you think it is. Again, you refuse to acknowledge that support for “affirmative action” does not translate into support for “racial preferences.” When Gallup phrases the question with “affirmative action,” they get the same results as your preferred Field poll does. The Field poll didn’t ask the question with “racial preferences,” but Gallup did, and the results are quite different. I’m not surprised that you’ve repeatedly ignored this point.
Neither am I surprised that you’ve refused to explain why socioeconomic disparities justify racial preferences. But I’ll keep hammering this point until you either answer it or stop posting. So once again, explain why socioeconomic disparities justify racial preferences.
fabrizio florida26 can’t answer either your questions about why socioeconomic disparities have any basis to justify racial preferences as well as why those URMs who receive huge racial preferences are so mismatched that most of these URMs fail to obtain their desired STEM degrees and generally are at the bottom 25% of their schools even after switching out of STEM.
In fact, no one has stepped up to answer the mismatch question per our prior requests.
Fabrizio you need to get your facts straight. Race is only part of affirmative action. There are other factors that need to be taken into account in affirmative action . So STOP calling it solely racial preferences. Not sure why the group here wants to have such hostility towards blacks and latinos rather than lend a helping hand . THE ASIAN AMERICAN STUDENT ASSOCIATION called you a small but vocal group of Asian Americans . Your exclusionary mentality does not have the support of the majority of asian americans and it is extremely detrimental to society as a whole. You should reread my post 1643 again so you can grasp the full meaning of it
I don’t care what “the Asian American Student Association” says. For someone who claims to be good at logic, you’re just using an “appeal to ‘authority’” fallacy. And what’s absurd is that you think it’s actually believable that a “small, but vocal” group of Asian Americans can affect California state politics to this degree. That makes no sense given that Asian Americans as a whole have absolutely no reputation whatsoever for being power brokers in politics.
Now you say “race is only part of affirmative action.” We’re making some progress here. That’s good. But isn’t it odd that this “only part” seems to be the part that you just gotta have? So why is considering race SO IMPORTANT in resolving socioeconomic disparities?
Fabrizio since you seem not to understand facts very well let me give you a short explanation on California politics. In order for the democrats to get SCA 5 on the ballot they needed a super majority. When the lost a couple key asian american dems they lost their ability to get the super majority. In other words a couple of asian american legislators alligned themselves with the repubs in California to deny the people the right to vote on an important constitutional amendment. It was three state senators. That was it. There were also many many other asian american groups that supported SCA 5 Do you not care what they have to say either. When I can get to another computer I will send you a primer on Affirmative Action so you can understand all parts of it. As I said before I am not sure why there is such an open hostility towards blacks and latinos. Perhaps you can explain that to me
OK, and why did these “key asian american dems” “allign [sic] themselves with the repubs in California”? Hmm? What was the reason? A small, but vocal minority of Asian Americans threatened to not vote for these three State senators?
Wow, big whoop! If the minority is as small as you claim it is, why did these State senators give a crap if they lost a few votes?
Oh, of course, you’re not going to answer this. And you’re not going to answer why race, as “only part” of “affirmative action” is so important that you can’t do without it and so magically powerful that considering it affects socioeconomic disparities!
fabrizio once again I have to help you with the facts. One of the three was Leland Yee. He has had quite an interesting career. He is currently under indictment for gun smuggling and public corruption. He bought shoulder launched missiles from Islamic extremist groups. He had quite the business spirit. The only mistake he made was trying to sell them to the FBI. Carol Lui one of the other senators said prop 209 set outdated barriers to under represented groups before she did a flip flop. Certainly a person of strong convictions. If you need for me to give you more of a primer on California politics I would be happy to assist you in your quest
Yee has been also accused of selling his votes for bribes and racketeering. I thought you might find that interesting
How about you explain how these facts led Yee and Lui to block SCA 5? Are you implying that Muslim Filipino separatists actually care about whether California uses racial preferences in the public sector? Really?
And how about you explain how considering race as “only part” of “affirmative action” helps address socioeconomic disparities? Like I said, bud, we can play this game for as long as you like. You’ll either answer the question or you’ll stop posting. Your choice which one happens first.
florida26 you realize that the UC schools already have 23% Hispanic enrollment even under Prop 209. Wouldn’t you consider that a “critical mass”?
And what pray tell “are other factors that need to be taken into account in affirmative action” given that schools are currently allowed to consider SES in admissions decisions?
fabrizio at this point how is any one supposed to know what was going through Yees head? Did Lui as a career politician just not know the issues when she first spoke and said prop 209 was very wrong? Or was she speaking her true convictions?? Your questions about politics in California are nonsensical and show a complete lack of understanding of California politics. Since you are so sure that you can win the AA debate WHY DO YOU REFUSE TO ALLOW THE PEOPLE TO VOTE ON AA??? So bud you will either answer the question or stop posting. Your choice
No, my questions point out how absurd your argument is. You all but admit this since you cannot explain why three State legislators felt compelled to placate a “small, but vocal” minority. Of course, logically, that makes no sense, and the much simpler explanation is that opposition to SCA 5 from Asian Americans was far, far, far larger than you claim.
As for your question, I’m not a California resident. I have no say in California state politics; its state legislators are not accountable to me. Wrong question, pal.
Now, my turn: explain how considering racial classification as “only part” of “affirmative action” helps address socioeconomic disparities.
Fabrizio Are you okay with the people voting onSCA 5??? That is a yes or no question. Quit dodging it!!! I will answer the AA question in a little bit. It takes an extensive answer and I cant do it from my IPAD.
florida26 as fabrizio and others have explained, it depends upon the wording of SCA 5. If SCA5 stated that it was lawful to grant only Blacks and Hispanics who come from low income families a huge racial preferences in the college admission process but not Asians, Whites, and Rich Blacks and Hispanics then sure go ahead place that to a vote. See how that turns out.
My guess is that the vast majority of Rich Blacks and Rich Hispanics and Asians and Whites would vote against it.
Now change SCA5 to state that “it is lawful for public colleges and universities to give preferences to low SES students in the admission process” and see how that turns out.
I’m guessing that would pass by a wide margin.
I look forward to reading your “extensive answer.” And sure, no problem with Californians voting on SCA 5. Just like I have no problem, and indeed heartily welcome, Asian Americans standing up and having their voices heard for once.
@fabrizio, I have no problem with your voice being heard, but until you realize that standardized test scores are NOT all schools are looking for, well you might as well be pissing in the wind. You can bitch all you want, but private schools can set their admissions criteria as they see fit.
IMO, a 2280 one and done is MUCH more impressive than a drone who has been studying for a single test for YEARS to insure that you get a perfect 36 or 2400. So ho hum boring!