"Race" in College Admission FAQ & Discussion 8

Applying to College
641

<p>Hey, I don’t agree with the institution, but I’m trying to get into college. It’s not going to change anytime soon, so yeah I’m trying to exploit the system however I can. But apparently I can’t.</p>

<p>You’re right that I am personally not getting some advantage from it just because I am Caucasian, but why should I get any advantage? I want to know that I get into school based on my merit, and I want to know that’s why others get in too. I don’t think anyone, although there are certainly exceptions to this–do not take it as a hard rule of mine, should get that advantage. I agree with neither the philosophy nor the political backing of it. There are many Caucasian, Asian, and Indian (I’m sure I’m leaving out a few more) students who have earned higher markings, have tried our hardest throughout our high school career, have done everything right, but are still getting beat out by people with lower markings just because of a simple factor. </p>

<p>I will admit that that was my fault, I didn’t know that there is an existing thread on the subject. I apologize. I don’t spend enough time on here to have known.</p>

642

<p>The minorities that get advantages in admissions to U.S. colleges are those who suffered discrimination in the United States, such as African Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans. This is not the case for Armenians, as far as I know. Armenians are a “minority” in the same way Scottish, Danish, and Slovak people are minorities.</p>

643

<p>I know why it’s in place, I know its history, but we, the “majority,” are not the cause of what happened. Why must we pay for it? Times have changed. Racism and discrimination are not nearly as prominent. I mean, look who’s our president! </p>

<p>For the record, there was much discrimination towards Europeans (I’m not really even talking about Armenians anymore) who came over to this country through Ellis Island. Does anyone even remember the eugenics movement? The attempt to keep the “bad” genes from the “superior” gene pool? Does anyone remember the horrible conditions to which European immigrants dealt with in the dirty, disease-ridden tenement homes? </p>

<p>Affirmative action is yet another example of discrimation. Two wrongs don’t make a right.</p>

644

<p>This entire post just reeks of privilege. I wonder what your ideology would have been if you could have somehow benefited from affirmative action? Affirmative action is not racism – call it flawed if you will, but that doesn’t make it racist. Plenty of white people manage to get into prestigious institutions every year. Maybe you should concentrate on what you have control over rather than complaining about affirmative action.</p>

645

<p>My kids, both white and middle class, have had no trouble getting into colleges - probably because they are smart and hard working. Some people have an easier time getting into college, and some not so. There are all sorts of factors, one of which is affirmative action. And ever better factor is having rich parents who can support you in all your endeavors, or maybe just having a teacher who sees your possibilites and helps you. </p>

<p>I am always amazed at kids who did not get accepted at a school, and blame it on a minority kid who got in ahead of them. You simply do not know that - you could be way further down the list. And in a holistic applicaiton process all things are taken into account, including an obvious feeling of entitlement, if that comes out in your application.</p>

646

<p>@rachelmk - If you don’t want to blatantly call it racist, it’s discriminatory. Which is, in essence, racist. I’m not whining because I don’t think I’ll get accepted to any schools, and I’m not necessarily trying to benefit. I’ve known I’m not going to. I’m white, I’m over it. Now that I’ve done all I can do, and still see the “flaws” of affirmative action pushing students into school, I’m angry. Excuse me for wanting to change a wrong to a right. And it’s not just me. We’re all just too politically correct to say anything, most of the time anyways.</p>

<p>@anotherparent – I understand what you’re saying. If a minority is well-qualified, and is ahead of a Caucasian, then they earned it. But my Hispanic friend, who earned a 1500-1600 (I can’t remember exactly, but it was LOW) total on her SAT and has a 3.9 weighted GPA, and is in the top 20th percent of my class, got into William and Mary recently. On Naviance, her green little acceptance dot on the scatterplot is the LOWEST that has been accepted. There are so many students that have been “denied” on the scatterplot who have had both a higher (much higher) SAT and GPA. Her GPA dragged the average accepted GPA from my school from a 4.33 to a 4.24 (only student accepted this year so far–early decision). She is by no means at a disadvantage, and she does not have any particular talents, nor are her extracurriculars better than anyone else’s.</p>

<p>On the other hand, the salutatorian of the 2010 class, a minority, got into MIT last year (his credentials were AMAZING, and he was a really great guy). He deserved it; he worked hard. But what kills me is that the valedictorian of the same class with much higher scores (they both were way above average–valedictorian’s, a white male’s, were higher), equal extracurriculars (I knew both of them personally) and what not doesn’t. Although in that case, I would say the salutatorian was definitely a good candidate for the school. I was just surprised the valedictorian didn’t get in too.</p>

<p>I can go on with examples.</p>

<p>I mean, I have nothing to complain about in my own case yet as I won’t be receiving an admissions decision for another four months. I too have worked hard, and if I don’t get in while someone who has scored consistently lower than me does, I will be disappointed. If I truly was benefitting a huge amount from affirmative action, if solely being Armenian truly benefitted me (I do not truly need that push, although since every other minority seems to get an advantage, I figured, “Why not try”), I know I wouldn’t be very proud of myself. But that isn’t the case anyways. I won’t be upset if it’s my ‘lack of merit’ that keeps me out of the school, but I will be upset if it’s a minority’s race that lets them in (unless they have earned it).</p>

<p>Race shouldn’t matter.</p>

<hr>

<p>This issue will be debated to the death. Arguing about it only further cements and polarizes our opinions. I disagree with affirmative action. Say what you will, but you’re not convincing me otherwise. And neither am I you.</p>

647

<p>

There’s an expression that is often used of certain rich people: “He was born on third base, and thought he hit a triple.” This is like that. As a white person in the U.S., you have advantages over disadvantaged minority group members that are rooted in history. While you personally didn’t do anything to create these advantages, you are part of the group that benefits from them.</p>

648

<p>I am white and my friend is Peruvian.</p>

<p>My GPA - 4.2
His GPA - 3.9
My ACT - 34
His - 33
I have harder corse load/more AP’s
Fairly even EC’s he might have a little better</p>

<p>Who’s more likely to get into a selective college? </p>

<p>I would be super mad if he got in and I didn’t because I know I have worked a lot harder than him.</p>

649

<p>The reason is because white’s will have an advantage in this country, have your ever heard of the glass ceiling. Minorities and women both will have a harder time then a white male in getting a successful career. AA is their to put diversity and get rid of the glass ceiling. I remember going to a law firm and very prestigious one and you know what I saw. Females at the reception, Latino’s and black’s as the cleaning staff, and white male’s doing the higher level work. You people may say racism is not there, it is still there trust me.</p>

650

<p>

Well, his grades and scores are still pretty darn good. If you really worked that much harder than he did, maybe he’s smarter than you. Also, maybe he’s nicer than you are.</p>

651

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</p>

<p>The Chinese Exclusion Act is the only U.S. law to ever prevent immigration and naturalization on the basis of race, and by 1924, all non-Filipino Asians were barred from emigrating, denied citizenship and naturalization, and were forbidden to marry whites or own land ([Source](<a href=“http://www.cbp.gov/xp/CustomsToday/2005/May_June/asian_pacific.xml]Source[/url]”>http://www.cbp.gov/xp/CustomsToday/2005/May_June/asian_pacific.xml)</a>). Amazingly, the vestige of anti-Chinese sentiment in the U.S. is still seen in the U.S. Code; though all sections of Title 8, Chapter 7 have long since been omitted or repealed, the chapter’s name remains unchanged: “Exclusion of Chinese.”</p>

<p>But do Asians get “advantages in admissions to U.S. colleges”? Nope. So clearly “suffer[ing] discrimination” is not the reason why some minorities get “advantages in admissions” while others get nothing or even [negative</a> action](<a href=“http://www.advancingequality.org/files/kidderarticle.pdf]negative”>http://www.advancingequality.org/files/kidderarticle.pdf).</p>

652

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<p>If so, it’s doing a horrible job of it.</p>

<p>According to Thomas Sowell, in 1940, 87% of black families lived in poverty. Two decades later, the figure had decreased to 47%. All of that change came BEFORE the spread of “affirmative action.” Well, what happened during the 1970s? The poverty rate fell from 30 percent to…29 percent. (Affirmative Action Around The World, pages 119-120).</p>

<p>Maybe it’s time we let people take care of themselves instead of persisting in the paternalistic tradition of, “I know what’s best for you.”</p>

653

<p>

It seems to me, though, that the Asian kids I see complaining about this tend to come from families that immigrated to the U.S. in the most recent generation or two. I find it particularly questionable to hear complaints about this from people whose families came to the U.S. after affirmative action preferences were already established.</p>

<p>And you won’t convince me, at least, of anything by quoting Thomas Sowell.</p>

654

<p>This thread is so full of bitterness and ignorance.</p>

<p>It has been proven time and time again that many people from underprivileged backgrounds who happen to be black/Hispanic/Native American and have lower GPAs and test scores than their white peers thrive in college to an extent their more privileged classmates can rarely demonstrate. Chronic, deep-rooted racial discrimination is a fact, and so is the correlation between social background and academic success in high school (note that this is not just about race, but also about class). The social circumstances of a student DO matter a lot when it comes to his or her academic performance and affirmative action is essentially an attempt to acknowledge this.</p>

<p>Ideally, the best universities accept people because of their potential (because your high-school achievements are only of interest to universities inasmuch as they suggest future success). To say that affirmative action is putting you at a disadvantage is to say that less talented people than you are getting in thanks to affirmative action. This is staggeringly ignorant.</p>

<p>Talent and potential are evenly spread among people of all races, religions, and nationalities. For some reason, however, they are ignored, overlooked, and even discouraged in students of color in the US. This is a flaw of the American education system. Affirmative action is one way to combat this tendency: by making an effort to recognize potential in people who, for reasons beyond their control, haven’t been able to demonstrate it yet.</p>

<p>Yes, black students often get into, say, Princeton or Stanford with slightly lower scores than their white peers. But isn’t it also true that black students generally score lower than white students? And why might that be? It’s not about natural intelligence or anything like that (and to even suggest that it is! God, how much bile); it is, as I said, a matter of institutionalized racism that is so deeply entrenched in American education that holding certain students to a slightly lower standard is the only way to counter its effects. Again, as I said, when those students find themselves at Princeton and Stanford, the myth of their inferiority is swiftly dismantled. Otherwise private universities, which are businesses first and charities second, simply wouldn’t persist with affirmative action.</p>

<p>Stop whining about being discriminated against; you’re not. A wrong is being righted here, but it’s not the one you’re thinking of.</p>

<p>In fact, I’d go as far as to say that affirmative action for students from low-income families should also be considered. I’m talking about colleges implementing a consistent policy of leniency to poorer applicants.</p>

655

<p>this topic ties me into logical circles …</p>

<p>Per Mitochondrial DNA analysis published in the past few years, every person currently alive descended from a group of humans in central Africa some 30,000 years ago.</p>

<p>This being the case, what he heck does Race mean? On this basis, 100% of college applicants are genetically African. </p>

<p>If colleges want to use the particular history of an applicant’s family to establish whether the applicant is from a group that is considered (by that college) to be socioeconimically disadvantaged, than the race question is completely irrelevant.</p>

<p>Perhaps the application question ought to specify a time frame – e.g. within the past 250 years, etc.</p>

<p>The University of California, San Diego publishes its admissions criteria and the point scale utilized. Leaving race aside entirely, bonus points revolve around socio-policital-econonic challenges in an applicant’s environment:</p>

<ul>
<li>single parent home</li>
<li>very low income</li>
<li>1st generation college</li>
<li>low performing high school (per CA standardized school testing)</li>
<li>participation in academic advancement programs typically reserved for poorly performing schools or social groups</li>
<li>several other “Challenges” </li>
</ul>

<p>In none of these categories in which an applicant gains bonus points does it ask or consider skin color, nationality, policitcal affiliation, or country of (recent) origin.</p>

656

<p>god, sheesh, can everyone stop trying to sound smart on this thread? it’s a goddamn internet forum for christ’s sake!</p>

<p>there are both sides to each argument</p>

<p>@ghost. you can’t correct a wrong done in the past. i see in more of like… eliminating guilt in the mind. whatever that’s not my point.</p>

<p>i think that there shouldn’t be AA based on race but rather on social condition- income, etc.</p>

657

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<p>Why do you find it “particularly questionable” to hear complaints from this crowd, which includes me? Because we are not the descendants of the Chinese who worked on the railroads?</p>

<p>To that I say, feh. More than two-fifths of all black students in Ivy Leagues are “first- or second-generation immigrants,” in other words, they are like me except their parents came from Jamaica or Nigeria instead of China or India. They are not the descendants of American slaves, yet they receive “advantages in admissions” nonetheless because they are allowed to self-identify as “African-American.” Should these students be “conscientious objectors” and refuse to self-identify so that “real African-Americans” can rightfully bear the fruits of affirmative action?</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/01/black]Source[/url”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/01/black]Source[/url</a>]</p>

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<p>Fallacy much? Are you saying that those figures are not to be trusted because they come from Sowell? Or are you saying that those figures don’t disprove that affirmative action has done very little to help its intended beneficiaries?</p>

658

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</p>

<p>Source please? As reported by Russell Nieli, Robert Klitgaard found that “when blacks and
whites are matched for SAT scores, the blacks in college do significantly worse than whites in terms of their college grades.”</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED497401.pdf]Source[/url”>http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED497401.pdf]Source[/url</a>]</p>

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<p>It’s a little more than just “slightly lower.” In 2005, less than 244 black high schoolers scored 750 or higher on both sections of the (old) SAT, and no more than 1,132 scored 700 or higher on both sections. Nationally, more than 78,025 students scored 700 or higher on both sections, as a point of reference.</p>

<p>How many top ranked schools are there? In past threads, I have used a bright line of forty (Top 20 research universities, Top 20 LACs) to show that there were not enough high-scoring black students in 2005 for those schools to each have even 29 black freshmen in the incoming class. And you can be sure that seeking “diversity” is not limited to those forty institutions.</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html]Source[/url”>The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test]Source[/url</a>]</p>

<p>Some may argue that the SAT is meaningless. That is not the point of contention here, which is the proportion of top-scoring black high schoolers relative to the total population of top-scorers.</p>

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<p>No, that is not right. Even Bowen and Bok, the arch-defenders of racial preferences, admitted that</p>

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<p>That’s on page 72 of The Shape of the River. You can argue that things have changed since 1989, but if you want to do so, show me a more updated source.</p>

659

<p>Okay, so I’m an Egyptian who immigrated to America and I’d like to get things cleared up. Why is it that Arabs are classified as Whites when very clearly, Arabs and Caucasians have different physical makeups and usually, Arabs are darker?</p>

<p>Also, here’s a list for me:
-First Gen Immigrant
-Family rose from living on a fellowship and TA salary to over 100K income</p>

<p>Does that entitle me to anything other than diversity?</p>

660

<p>@mohamedzv2 There’s much more to race than skin tone. And even then, some Middle Easterners have a fair complexion and “European features”. It has more to do with genetics, many Arabs have similar genetics to Europeans. So yes, they are both Caucasian.</p>