<p>this kinda relates to this…</p>
<p>but when looking at “all girl schools” is it 99% because they cant discriminate and not accept a male just because hes a male?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The use of “you” in this quoted text makes this a personal insult. (It reads like an ethnic slur, too, and I think would be instantly recognizable as such by most readers if another ethnic group were referred to.) Stop, please. There are terms of service here on College Confidential </p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item</a> </p>
<p>and that kind of comment crosses the line into posting behavior banned by the terms of service. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I am an exception to that general statement.</p>
<p>epiphany, as an Asian woman, I find it very frustrating when people believe that African Americans are the only ones capable of being victims of racism. That premises is false. Every race has been subject to racism. And racism isn’t the only form of hate. People who belong to religions not considered mainstream are hated. People who are fat, ugly, or otherwise not within the norm are hated. Please get over the idea that African Americans hold a monopoly on being hated. Also, have you attended a high school that is diverse? I do. Generally speaking, the people who hate the most tend to be African Americans. Listen to them speak. They spew hate against Hispanics, white people, Asians, Jews, Muslims, girls who they find unacceptable, girls who they find acceptable, their own people, etc. The idea that African Americans walk around society being innocent victims of discrimination is not what I have experienced in my 17 years on this planet.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This claim isn’t worth much without any evidence. Right now I’m interpreting it as a personal anecdote about how much you dislike black people.</p>
<p>edit: also racism has different effects depending on whether you have the power to leverage it or not. Suppose (I am not saying that this is the case–this is just a thought experiment) that two separate racial groups hate each other equally. One is quite powerful and the other, poor and disenfranchised. The powerful can much more effectively use their hate to oppress the other group than the other way around. The powerful group’s racism is definitely much worse than the disenfranchised group.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I have a nephew who has an obviously Hispanic last name through his father (my BIL). He is “technically” half Hispanic. However, he’s grown up in an upper-middle if not upper class environment, parents have a high six figure income, attends an elite private school, has every luxury known to man, and is by no definition of the word a “struggling” Hispanic from the barrio. He is Ivy League materials based on stats and smarts. And yes, he has a greater shot because he has a Hispanic last name and can claim that heritage. Is that “unfair” compared to my kids? Yeah. Oh well. I’d have my kids use that advantage too, if they could. I’m just not going to spend my energy worrying about other people getting advantages that I might not. It’s the sign of a whiny failure to do so. Yeah, he has an advantage, and yeah, the intent of treating Hispanics as URM wasn’t to help rich kids like him, but to help the poor kids from the barrio. Sigh. Life’s not fair, oh well. It makes people look like really small people to fret over these things.</p>
<p>
If I said something like this when replying to a black person I would be called a racist. I think it’s only fair that you get the same treatment, racist.</p>
<p>
One of the worse thing AA defenders do is argue that people who oppose AA are all whiny failure who are upset that they got rejected from the school of their choice. I hate to break it to you, but there are many of us who get into all our top choices and still oppose AA. I oppose AA because it is unfair and should cease to exist, and I find it insulting for you to imply otherwise.</p>
<p>
Life should be made as fair as we can make it. I guess some people don’t feel that way, but I do.</p>
<p>Personally, I like to talk about how much people of all different backgrounds can appreciate people of all different backgrounds, rather than making invidious statements about whole vaguely defined groups based on anecdotes about a few people I’ve partially observed.</p>
<p>
Seriously? This is one of the most circular, provincial arguments I’ve ever heard.</p>
<p>First of all, each advantage unjustly given to a URM accounts for another seat taken at a school. That means less seats are available, and thus ORMs (a study has shown that whites are largely unaffected by AA) face a disadvantage.</p>
<p>And your reasoning is asinine. Life’s not fair? Stop falling back on this shallow statement with little relevance to this thread. Life is not fair because of things that are inevitable, factors that cannot be controlled. Affirmative action is not inevitable. Your ignorant attitude basically accomplishes as much as settling AA in stone because of your belief that “life isn’t fair,” and that this idea should be promoted by private universities.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>My kids are Jewish and will have profiles that look a lot like typical upper-middle-class Jewish kids, of which there is no shortage of applicants to top schools. Are they ORM’s affected by AA or whites unaffected by AA, in your estimation?</p>
<p>Would you say that being an over achieving Asian American from an extremely low income background is an extreme disadvantage or an advantage? </p>
<p>Disadvantage because the “low income background” itself puts the Asian American student in competition with other URM’s whom top colleges would look favorable upon (more than Asian American students) in order to diversify their campus since they already have a high concentration of Asian students that can afford the education…</p>
<p>OR</p>
<p>Advantage since most Asian Americans are not from low income backgrounds and thus, the Asian American in a pool of other URMS would thus be the URM in that group. Would this student stand out?</p>
<p>Once again, I’ll use this study as a reference point:</p>
<p><a href=“http://opr.princeton.edu/faculty/Tje/EspenshadeSSQPtII.pdf[/url]”>http://opr.princeton.edu/faculty/Tje/EspenshadeSSQPtII.pdf</a></p>
<p>Whites are largely unaffected by affirmative action.</p>
<p>
Unfortunately it’s difficult to tell as many schools do not practice socioeconomic AA or cannot afford to support it. I would hope that he/she would be at an advantage, but in the convoluted world of admissions he/she might be disadvantaged, even at need-blind institutions.</p>
<p>Let’s change the question. I think we all would agree that the type of boost that my well-off nephew gets from being Hispanic is probably “unfair” (whether or not we fret about it), because he’s not Jose-from-the-block, he’s as affluent upper class as they come, and therefore the good intentions of helping low-income Hispanics aren’t met by favoring him.</p>
<p>What if the preferences were indeed socioeconomically based and those who made lower incomes (regardless of race) were boosted up? That still wouldn’t be “fair” but would that be better than just a blanket you’re-Hispanic-or-you’re-Afr-Am-so-you-get-a-boost-even-if-you-are-well-off?</p>
<p>^^^^^ Of course it would be better</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>YES, it would be better.
It would be ideal, in fact.
The unfortunate reality with socioeconomic AA is that colleges do need tuition money themselves; only a handful of colleges in the US are need-blind and can offer financial aid left and right. But as a whole, socioeconomic AA is a giant step up from racial AA.</p>
<p>Well, then I might suggest that the conversation revolve around socioeconomic affirmative action instead of affirmative action as a whole.</p>
<p>silence_kit, of course it was a personal anecdote; hence my use of the phrase “my experience.” But it’s not a personal anecdote about “how much * dislike black people.” I don’t dislike anyone because of their skin color. At my school, I have been called derogatory racial names on four occasions by African American girls. No one else has called me by such names. You can justify this racism if that makes you fell better, but I suggest more reasonable people will conclude that racism is bad no matter what color the hateful person is. </p>
<p>And I suggest it’s time to bury notions of victimhood. Did you listen to President Obama when he addressed the NAACP last week? He told them that the time has come to embrace a new way of thinking. The achievement gap between AA and other races has widened since the Civil Rights movement. The achievement gap persists notwithstanding billions of dollars in government programs. Why is this true? By any reasonable measure, racism against AA is less now than ever before, so why haven’t things improved if racism is the culprit? Why haven’t AA students made more progress? </p>
<p>In my opinion, the more the AA community blames outside forces for the achievement gap, the longer the achievement gap will exist. Only when they follow President Obama’s suggestion of embracing a new way of thinking will the achievement gap start closing.</p>
<p>Here’s another personal anecdote. I live near a community of Vietnamese and Hmong immigrants. Poverty and racism didn’t stop their children from achieving academically. Three of our last four valedictorians came from this community. Most of their parents couldn’t speak English and were uneducated. However, they recognized that this country offers people like them a chance to escape poverty if their children try hard in school. I was visiting one of these families a month ago, and the mother was telling me how wonderful this country is. In tears, she told me that her daughter, who came here in third grade without the ability to speak English, received a full-ride scholarship to Johns Hopkins University to study medicine. The Hmong couldn’t care less about racism and their poverty. They know that they can overcome everything with hard work. Sounds like a good way of thinking to me.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That could occur in another thread. But this thread is devoted to discussion of the role of race in college admissions.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Sure, why not? I quite like socioeconomically based AA.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The thread title is “‘Race’ in College Admissions FAQ & Discussion 4,” and the thread exists because this issue is, indeed, a Frequently Asked Question issue here on CC. But the scope of interpretation of the topic is broad enough to include discussion of socioeconomic affirmative action. I have some links on that subject </p>
<p>[BW</a> Online | July 7, 2003 | Needed: Affirmative Action for the Poor](<a href=“Businessweek - Bloomberg”>Businessweek - Bloomberg) </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ffp0621.pdf[/url]”>Error; </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ff0615S.pdf[/url]”>http://www.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ff0615S.pdf</a> </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Education/carnrose.pdf[/url]”>http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Education/carnrose.pdf</a> </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Education/kahlenberg-affaction.pdf[/url]”>http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Education/kahlenberg-affaction.pdf</a> </p>
<p>[A</a> Thumb on the Scale | Harvard Magazine May-June 2005](<a href=“http://harvardmagazine.com/2005/05/a-thumb-on-the-scale.html]A”>http://harvardmagazine.com/2005/05/a-thumb-on-the-scale.html) </p>
<p>[The</a> Best Class Money Can Buy - The Atlantic (November 2005)](<a href=“http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200511/financial-aid-leveraging/4]The”>http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200511/financial-aid-leveraging/4) </p>
<p>[The</a> Harvard Crimson :: News :: Recruiting a New Elite](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=510012]The”>http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=510012) </p>
<p>[Cost</a> Remains a Key Obstacle to College Access](<a href=“http://www.equaleducation.org/commentary.asp?opedid=1240]Cost”>http://www.equaleducation.org/commentary.asp?opedid=1240) </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.jkcf.org/assets/files/0000/0084/Achievement_Trap.pdf[/url]”>http://www.jkcf.org/assets/files/0000/0084/Achievement_Trap.pdf</a> </p>
<p>[Legacies</a> of Injustice: Alumni preferences threaten educational equity–and no one seems to care. - Reason Magazine](<a href=“http://www.reason.com/news/show/123910.html]Legacies”>Legacies of Injustice) </p>
<p>[Promise</a> Lost: College-Qualified Students Who Don?t Enroll in College (IHEP)](<a href=“http://www.ihep.org/publications/publications-detail.cfm?id=117]Promise”>http://www.ihep.org/publications/publications-detail.cfm?id=117) </p>
<p>[Colleges</a> reach out to poorer students - The Boston Globe](<a href=“http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2008/11/10/colleges_reach_out_to_poorer_students?mode=PF]Colleges”>http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2008/11/10/colleges_reach_out_to_poorer_students?mode=PF) </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hkBGMsvJKRKaL67qxkOCaDByDJFAD94R70G02[/url]”>http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hkBGMsvJKRKaL67qxkOCaDByDJFAD94R70G02</a> </p>
<p>that I invite all participants to read. I appreciate the recent calming down of the thread. It’s all right for people to disagree about issues of policy–that is the right of any citizen of any free country. But let’s all do our best to be civil and to acknowledge that people who disagree with us may nonetheless have important perspective to add to the discussion.</p>