"Race" in College Admissions FAQ & Discussion 4

tokenadult · July 19, 2009, 10:30pm

What colleges did you have in mind?

NearL · July 19, 2009, 10:31pm

You should really spend some time in Harlem. The difference between China town and Harlem is staggering and I’m sure that the vast majority of people would prefer to grow up as the average person in the former rather than the latter.

skateboarder · July 19, 2009, 11:19pm

I don’t think people should be given an advantage if (notice I said IF) their culture fails to promote productivity, families sticking together, and hard work. If thats why AA exists, I think its wrong.

NearL · July 19, 2009, 11:58pm

So a person that’s born into anti-intellectual environment and excels despite doesn’t deserve any sort of boost? Not for the challenges that ensue? Not for the decidely academically shallow environment it will no doubt entail?

Same thing for only having one parent, right? Shouldn’t be considered I presume? Can’t give advantages to people if their culture fails to promote the nuclear family.

By this logic we should probably say the same about income. We shouldn’t give people an advantage if their culture fails to promote economic prosperity.

That kind of reasoning bottoms out kind of quickly.

I’m sure an uncompetitive school culture helps with grades and class rank, but it definitely hurts come time for the SATs.

I’m not an advocate for Affirmative Action across groups. I’m for looking at individual circumstances. College ad coms can do that, so they should.

FiddlinEcon · July 20, 2009, 12:00am

NearL, have you lived in the both communities?
I admit that I have lived in neither. But I often stroll around in Harlem and China Town for these 7 years since I moved to NYC. Harlem is 10 blocks away from my home and China town is also 10 blocks away from my workplace. I know I can not imagine exactly how the people’s real life is going on there. Let’s pick up some stat. Below is median income by local
China Town $20,841
Harlem $21,446
East Harlem $16,234
vs
UES $83,698
UWS $73,836
I see a big difference between first 3 and last 2 but see small differences among first 3.

FiddlinEcon · July 20, 2009, 12:05am

NearL, I agree with your notion “individual circumstances” should be considered in college admission.
I am basically in defense of idea of “affirmative action”. But I think colleges should be carefull in applying that idea into their practice.

NearL · July 20, 2009, 12:14am

FiddlinEcon, I don’t believe that money quite captures the differences between Chinatown and Harlem. They’re both terrible places to grow up. But in my experience, Chinatown has a cohesive, if not slightly oppressive community. It’s not sesame street, but if you have to grow up in an area where the median income the poverty line, it’s not at all a bad place. Harlem, meanwhile, is pretty much the opposite. Domestic stability is rare and two parent homes are rarer. People rarely escape.

Don’t get me wrong. I believe that students from EITHER community should get a monumental boost. But I’d probably end up giving more weight growing up in Harlem.

That being said, I don’t think that students from Chinatown and Harlem should be competing against each other. Rather, they should probably be competing against students within the established Asian and Black/Hispanic pools respectively.

None of this is to say that Asian students should be systematically shafted. But they do make up some 15-20% at most top universities already despite being like 3% of the population. My only worry is that competitive Asian students from poor families are being shut out of the schools with the best aid and being replaced by their better heeled counterparts. If an Asian student is talented enough for a top school but not quite competitive enough for scholarships at first tier universities, they have to set their sights pretty low to get a scholarship. That’s unfair and that’s what I worry about. They’ll do well come graduate admissions, but that’s hardly a consolation prize for the students in question.

epiphany · July 20, 2009, 12:24am

Perhaps she means Olin, Hulnan, Harvey Mudd, U of Washington, Michigan, CalTech, Georgia Tech, U of Wisconsin, U of Rochester, Cal Poly, USC, and many others…

(in addition, of course, to MIT, Berkeley, CMU, Stanford, Cornell, etc.)

FiddlinEcon · July 20, 2009, 12:28am

NearL, I agree with the most part of your post. Our only disagreement may be that you think “Asian” being “a group” against other categories and I don’t think so.

chaosakita · July 20, 2009, 12:34am

lol

Harvey Mudd and USC has over 1/5 of its students as Asian, U Washington 1/4, Caltech almost 2/5. Even in a state with a limited numbers of Asians, Georgia tech has over 15% Asians. Colleges can do whatever they want, I’m not sure how many more Asian students they want. Even U Wisconsin with 6% Asian has Asians overrepresented in a state with such a small number of them.

epiphany · July 20, 2009, 10:53am

^^ Doesn’t matter. Many of these U’s and LAC’s are still happy to continue to accept Asians & aren’t as concerned with proportion or maximum diversity of origin.

Pizzagirl · July 20, 2009, 11:06am

You took the words out of my mouth, epiphany.

If I moved to China and thought that my child should get into the best colleges there because of her wonderful extracurriculars and helping little old ladies cross the street, then I’d be stupid. It’s stupid to hold onto preconceived notions when the evidence is right there in front of you that this new country works a different way.

But, hey, heaven forbid any of these parents realize that their new country works a different way and adapt to that. No, better to hold on to the belief that success in the US is only predicated upon going to one of a dozen or so name schools, and that if you don’t go to those schools, you’re pretty much resigned to flipping burgers or washing cars.

As for this comment:

Oh, good grief. There seems to be this unsophisticated belief that you have to go to a top undergrad school to become a doctor. Newsflash, plenty of people become doctors after going to “average” state flagships and “average” medical schools – and doctors don’t get paid more in reimbursement by Blue Cross Blue Shield if they have a fancy undergrad degree or fancy med school degree. A premed can be a premed ANYWHERE. No, an ibanker can’t, but for medicine? Absolutely.

tokenadult · July 20, 2009, 11:45am

Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering (Waltham, MA)

<pre><code>* 12% Asian/Pacific Islander

1% Black/Non-Hispanic
3% Hispanic
57% White/Non-Hispanic
5% Non-Resident Alien
21% Race/ethnicity unreported
</code></pre>

[College</a> Search - Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering - Olin College - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

See also

[College</a> Search - Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering - Olin College - SAT®, AP®, CLEP®](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology (Terre Haute, IN)

<pre><code>* 1% American Indian/Alaskan Native

4% Asian/Pacific Islander
4% Black/Non-Hispanic
2% Hispanic
88% White/Non-Hispanic
2% Non-Resident Alien
<1% Race/ethnicity unreported
</code></pre>

[College</a> Search - Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

See also

[College</a> Search - Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology - SAT®, AP®, CLEP®](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

Harvey Mudd College (Claremont, CA)

<pre><code>* 1% American Indian/Alaskan Native

22% Asian/Pacific Islander
2% Black/Non-Hispanic
7% Hispanic
56% White/Non-Hispanic
5% Non-Resident Alien
7% Race/ethnicity unreported
</code></pre>

[College</a> Search - Harvey Mudd College - Mudd - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

See also

[College</a> Search - Harvey Mudd College - Mudd - SAT®, AP®, CLEP®](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

University of Washington (Seattle, WA)

<pre><code>* 1% American Indian/Alaskan Native

28% Asian/Pacific Islander
3% Black/Non-Hispanic
6% Hispanic
51% White/Non-Hispanic
6% Non-Resident Alien
4% Race/ethnicity unreported
</code></pre>

[College</a> Search - University of Washington - U-Dub - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

See also

[College</a> Search - University of Washington - U-Dub - SAT®, AP®, CLEP®](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

University of Michigan (Ann Arbor, MI)

<pre><code>* 1% American Indian/Alaskan Native

12% Asian/Pacific Islander
6% Black/Non-Hispanic
3% Hispanic
66% White/Non-Hispanic
4% Non-Resident Alien
8% Race/ethnicity unreported
</code></pre>

[College</a> Search - University of Michigan - U of M - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

See also

[College</a> Search - University of Michigan - U of M - SAT®, AP®, CLEP®](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

(Current state law in Michigan is that race or ethnicity is not an admission factor. Previous practice at the University of Michigan was declared unconstitutional by the United States Supreme Court in a case cited above in this FAQ and discussion thread. Under the previous policy, “Asian” students did not receive favorable admission consideration for being Asian. A modified, post-litigation version of the previous policy was applied to many students in the most recently reported enrolled class, while the University attempted to block application of a voter initiative banning consideration of ethnicity in state universities in Michigan.)

California Institute of Technology (Pasadena, CA)

<pre><code>* 39% Asian/Pacific Islander

1% Black/Non-Hispanic
5% Hispanic
41% White/Non-Hispanic
11% Non-Resident Alien
3% Race/ethnicity unreported
</code></pre>

[College</a> Search - California Institute of Technology - CALTECH - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

See also

[College</a> Search - California Institute of Technology - CALTECH - SAT®, AP®, CLEP®](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

Georgia Institute of Technology (Atlanta, GA)

<pre><code>* <1% American Indian/Alaskan Native

18% Asian/Pacific Islander
5% Black/Non-Hispanic
4% Hispanic
63% White/Non-Hispanic
7% Non-Resident Alien
3% Race/ethnicity unreported
</code></pre>

[College</a> Search - Georgia Institute of Technology - Georgia Tech - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

See also

[College</a> Search - Georgia Institute of Technology - Georgia Tech - SAT®, AP®, CLEP®](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

University of Wisconsin–Madison (Madison, WI)

<pre><code>* 1% American Indian/Alaskan Native

6% Asian/Pacific Islander
3% Black/Non-Hispanic
4% Hispanic
78% White/Non-Hispanic
6% Non-Resident Alien
3% Race/ethnicity unreported
</code></pre>

[College</a> Search - University of Wisconsin-Madison - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

See also

[College</a> Search - University of Wisconsin-Madison - SAT®, AP®, CLEP®](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)

<pre><code>* <1% American Indian/Alaskan Native

10% Asian/Pacific Islander
4% Black/Non-Hispanic
3% Hispanic
53% White/Non-Hispanic
9% Non-Resident Alien
20% Race/ethnicity unreported
</code></pre>

[College</a> Search - University of Rochester - U of R - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

See also

[College</a> Search - University of Rochester - U of R - SAT®, AP®, CLEP®](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

California Polytechnic State University (San Luis Obispo. CA)

<pre><code>* 1% American Indian/Alaskan Native

11% Asian/Pacific Islander
1% Black/Non-Hispanic
12% Hispanic
66% White/Non-Hispanic
1% Non-Resident Alien
8% Race/ethnicity unreported
</code></pre>

[College</a> Search - California Polytechnic State University: San Luis Obispo - Cal Poly - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

See also

[College</a> Search - California Polytechnic State University: San Luis Obispo - Cal Poly - SAT®, AP®, CLEP®](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

University of Southern California (Los Angeles, CA)

<pre><code>* 1% American Indian/Alaskan Native

27% Asian/Pacific Islander
7% Black/Non-Hispanic
10% Hispanic
46% White/Non-Hispanic
6% Non-Resident Alien
3% Race/ethnicity unreported
</code></pre>

[College</a> Search - University of Southern California - USC - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)

See also

[College</a> Search - University of Southern California - USC - SAT®, AP®, CLEP®](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=3341&profileId=6)

What was the commonality of these colleges again?

Pizzagirl · July 20, 2009, 12:20pm

The commonality is that with the exception of Caltech, they don’t have Asian parents knocking down the doors to get their kids in. There are also plenty of excellent LAC’s where there aren’t a lot of Asians. But, they continue to chase after the same 12 colleges and complain that it’s so hard to be Asian and get in those 12. Why not zag while everyone else zigs?

chaosakita · July 20, 2009, 1:02pm

So why are those colleges happy and the Ivy Leagues not? I think it would be weird for such a bastion of liberal thinking to be less accepting of diversity than those colleges. I’m glad you know how open-minded all of these colleges are.

Cultural challenges are one of the reasons schools have affirmative action.

Wow, let’s make such a blanket statement on blacks or Latinos or even middle-class whites!

There are many white parents like that (look at the people paying $40,000 for college counselors!), but colleges hardly have a problem against them. Why should desperate Asians be treated any desperate whites?

And even if Asian parents aren’t desperate to get into those engineering schools, they don’t seem to have a problem with their kids going there, which still makes these schools have Asians overrepresented (including U Wisconsin), something that looks unappealing to college admissions officers who wish to have a more proportional racial balance in the form of affirmative action. Even places like Oberliln and Carleton with minimal numbers of Asian students have them overrepresented, while struggling to increase representation from other minorities. I think only Caltech is the only private college of the above list that doesn’t have AA.

U Michigan and U Washington (I think) don’t (aren’t supposed to) have AA, though.

epiphany · July 20, 2009, 1:52pm

Wrong. Caucasian families are overall far more open to diversifying the college list. They may, like many Asians, focus especially on fave 10-12, but virtually always there are realistic matches & safeties in there, even when there should be more. That is one of many reasons they do choose to hire college counselors – to better ensure some high matches if dream schools do not come through. Yes, these families also have high goals. It’s just not the black-and-white perception that it is in China: The Best, or lifelong poverty/failure.

As to newly immigrated Latinos, they do indeed have misconceptions about what will win them a scholarship, for example. I read their scholarship essays, and I can tell you that all of the ones I have read reveal no idea what it means to answer an application question for content; their answers are strictly emotional, which works in Mexico, not here. It means that the reader has no information about what the applicant brings to the effort EXCEPT passion. “I want the scholarship with all my heart” (said 10 different ways) is not a convincing answer vs. students who articulate what they will actually do with the scholarship, and what they have actually done to earn it.

I also don’t know why you would think native-born blacks would not understand the expectations of white academia. They understand them well, which is why they tend to refrain from applying unless they believe they have something of a substantial chance; if anything, they are conservative about their college choices.

tokenadult’s posted statistics show that there is still plenty of highly desirable room on the part of those colleges. Ethnic balance (not absolute numbers but basic proportionality) is not nearly as much an issue with the non “elites” as it is with the most selective U’s in the country. No, Caltech is not the only such one on the list. It’s just that it appeals to Asians and they often qualify well for Caltech because of the singular focus on numbers there. Colleges who do consider some form of ethnic balance are not looking for representation proportional to the population (local or nationwide); rather, they look for some ultimate balance in estimated enrollment. They actually do understand that some populations, particularly some immigrant populations, are both more committed to education and more qualified to pursue higher learning. If they didn’t understand that, there wouldn’t be the already extremely “over” represented Asian segments that there currently are in the Ivies, for example. Clearly the Elites value that passion & preparation; it’s just that they want some inclusion of those equally passionate & prepared, of different backgrounds.

I’ve advocated for a long time on CC for much better cultural transitioning on the part of officials in our immigration department, particularly as it applies to education. I was shot down for my advocacy views. Posters responded that when Americans travel overseas, they have to learn opposite expectations on their own. My feeling is that sharing information is economical and improves efficiency, including for the colleges. In retrospect, I believe that some of the posters preferred keeping immigrant families in the dark with regard to what colleges were looking for, due to competition.

Pizzagirl · July 20, 2009, 2:17pm

How many threads on CC are to the effect of “My parents seem to think that I am a shoo-in for HYPSM and I will be a disgrace to the family if I don’t get in there?” There’s a difference between wanting your kids to do well – shared by parents of all races and cultures – and caring about not shaming the family, which is uniquely Asian. There’s a difference between acknowledging that elite schools offer unique opportunities – shared by parents of all races and cultures – and a belief that not attending an elite school dooms one to a mediocre life, which is uniquely Asian.

monstor344 · July 20, 2009, 2:47pm

Oh come on. I go to Chinatown quite frequently and it really isn’t crime-ridden or even uncomfortable. I would argue that there is a friendly atmosphere in Chinatown, in fact.

I don’t think you’ll find too many people who would say the same about Harlem. Yes, it’s gotten a lot better in the last 20-30 years, but it’s nowhere near the comfort level of Chinatown.

monstor344 · July 20, 2009, 2:51pm

Yeah, and notice how the only small schools oriented towards engineering (Olin, Harvey Mudd, etc.) are all filled with Asians? Why would an Asian be interested in a college that doesn’t suit his/her desired field? Like I’ve said earlier, you would have to be naive to not realize that many Asians focus is on engineering and premed in undergraduate school. There are very few schools actively seeking Asians that provide a strong basis for either field.

epiphany · July 20, 2009, 3:02pm

Not naive. You don’t seem to have read my posts. I was – hello – focusing on engineering. Why would any applicant of any backgorund narrow their application efforts to “those very few schools actively seeking Asians”? Once again, as pizzagirl and I have both said: Lots and lots of schools are not particularly actively seeking one ethnic group (nor denying or limiting one ethnic group) over another or others. Their ethnic proportions can change, and do, and those schools won’t care as long as they’re getting great applicants. There’s a wealth of opportunity for Asians in our country if they would stop trying to reduce all their efforts to gaming the system. You can only predict so much; trying to outguess every institution is a waste of time and not even a very scientific way to go about it. It’s like spending your entire driving time looking in the rear view mirror to see who’s catching up to you. Focus forward and focus positive – the way the vast majority of students must do in order for their applications to benefit from positive energy and communicate successfully.

"Race" in College Admissions FAQ & Discussion 4

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