<p>They’re only “hoes” if they come to a such-named fraternity party, which, last I could tell, wasn’t imposed on any female student. </p>
<p>Nobody forced them to dress in skimpy outfits and underage drink in frathouses, but by God the girls seem to enjoy such heinous and offensive parties. Huh. Maybe the women supposedly insulted aren’t actually offended by this. What an odd conclusion, that college students hold different cultural norms than the posters here that are 30 years on from school.</p>
<p>As an addition to this, I personally wouldn’t attend a party that I actually found offensive. Didn’t keep me away from those that made light fun of my ethnic/gender background.</p>
<p>About 30 years ago, I lived in the middle east. I brought my brother an arab head scarf and thobe as a gift. He wore it trick or treating as he was in middle school. Received many nice comments on his costume. Pretty sure that if he were to let HIS middle school aged son out in that outfit, he would be labeled a racist or worse.</p>
<p>When did it become offensive to dress up the in the costume of a foreign culture? Probably around the time it became offensive to name your school mascot after an Indian tribe which has always baffled me. Generally, mascots are something to be proud of and a symbol of what you want your school to stand for: Eagles, Spartans, Trojans, etc. Why would it be offensive to have a Chippewa or Huron as a mascot?</p>
<p>People are seriously getting way too sensitive.</p>
<p>Cobrat, I am truly sorry for the bullying and prejudice you experienced, but you kind of prove my point. You are extremely sensitive to the Spanish team’s actions because you associate it with the real disdain you experienced. But unlike DonnaL, I think intentions DO matter in evaluating a situation. If the Spanish team didn’t intend to offend because they in no way felt superior to their hosts with regard to race, and the Chinese were not offended because they in no way felt inferior to the Spaniards, then was the gesture really wrong because it offended some Americans with that particular sensibility due to their personal history?</p>
<p>It is often difficult to discern the difference between real negative attitudes toward a different group and humor that plays on traits associated with it. But that is why as a society we have to go after discriminatory ACTIONS, not expressions of people’s perceptions. I think it is really counter-productive to react to things such as the mowing incident with the assumption that these guys were manifesting derogatory attitudes.</p>
<p>I certainly agree that everyone has a right to express their indignation at a perceived affront, but no one can claim to channel the feelings of a whole group. The extent of which a reference to a stereotype is appropriate depends on many factors but is basically question of common sense and courtesy, which needless to say is always up for interpretation. But in general, because a few people may take umbrage to a joke, it doesn’t mean that it warrants a general apology or a change in behavior.</p>
<p>From Ithacakid:
"They’re only “hoes” if they come to a such-named fraternity party, which, last I could tell, wasn’t imposed on any female student. </p>
<p>Nobody forced them to dress in skimpy outfits and underage drink in frathouses, but by God the girls seem to enjoy such heinous and offensive parties. Huh. Maybe the women supposedly insulted aren’t actually offended by this. What an odd conclusion, that college students hold different cultural norms than the posters here that are 30 years on from school."</p>
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<p>Yes, frats and other college groups have had them parties since time immemorial and many of them have likely had some his and hers component. It is more recently that it seems the “hoes” thing has become a cultural norm in some circles, but that doesn’t mean it’s a great thing or that it might not shift to some more neutral sexy but not subjugated happy medium. Like I said earlier - “raising awareness” and changing attitudes takes time, and maybe some day a critical mass of party planners will be aware enough to tweak their party names enough to cut out the intended or unintended misogynistic language and maybe young women will shift enough to demand change. Unfortunately, this language and attitude seeps out into the broader culture as we have seen in our national discourse this year, and is not always all in good fun out there.</p>
<p>The girls who go to the “hoes” parties just prove that it’s possible to discriminate against yourself.</p>
<p>As to the Spaniards in China, I think context matters, too. They weren’t in America, and they weren’t Americans, so their actions may not have the same meaning as they would if done by Americans in America. Blackface at a frat party may have a different meaning in context than blackface on Laurence Oiivier playing Othello.</p>
<p>I continue to find the lawn-mowing incident somewhat myterious, but another poster gave us more of the context–this frat does “outrageous” things as a kind of show. I would say that makes what they did more offensive.</p>
<p>Umm, Spain is a pretty racist society, or was in the past. It had colonies in North Africa, South America, and Asia, and there is a long history of noticing and judging people’s skin color and bloodlines. I wouldn’t assume for a minute that the Spanish team’s action was innocent. Maybe not intended as a direct insult, but a reflection of biases so deeply ingrained people aren’t even aware of them.</p>
<p>JHS, It is a little silly to point to a colonial past and historical aristocracy as evidence of current racism (if it weren’t, one could point out that slavery was abolished in Spanish colonies in 1820, long before it was in the U.S). While I won’t argue that there aren’t persistent prejudices against certain ethnic groups in that country as a Catholic-based society–particularly gypsies, Muslims and Jews, racially, modern-day Spain is quite unbigoted.</p>
<p>I have seen far more flagrant examples of horrible, horrible racism, sexism and worse in what is called humor. </p>
<p>Fordiscussion, things have changed. Around here if you had better not be wearing Arab garb as a joke. I don’t know who would get to you first, the ones who are being mocked or the authorities who get antsy when they see anything that fits that profile</p>
<p>I’d love to wear a hijabs and abayas on bad hair days, or when I just don’t feel like wearing tailored clothes, just want to throw on something. When do an early morning drop off at the train station, one of those tunics would do me just fine. Some days I’d love to go incognito. But not a good idea to do this around here.</p>
<p>Wildwood11, why make such silly arguments? Slavery was abolished in lots of places before it ended in the U.S., or may never have existed in the same race-based form, and that doesn’t mean the societies are free of racism today (see, e.g., the U.K., Russia, Japan). You can go to Mississippi and see lots of examples of unbigoted, racially diverse life, but that doesn’t mean that if a group of white Mississippians put on blackface and rolled their eyes it would be innocent of racism.</p>
<p>And you completely missed the point because:</p>
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<p>The Chinese in China aren’t offended because they are in the same ruling position that Whites are in this country. Neither of them have that experience…so they often just don’t get it. </p>
<p>Trying to use them to effectively dismiss the reactions of Asian-Americans as “overly insensitive” only shows your cluelessness about our experiences and those of other minority groups who experience similar racist bullying and worse, a disturbing lack of empathy. </p>
<p>Variants of your argument have been used by some teachers to justify not punishing or even acknowledging the racist bullying many minority college classmates, colleagues, and I faced during our K-12 experiences…especially those from the rural South/Midwest. </p>
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<p>I’d say if they’re participating in an international sporting venue like the Olympics, they need to understand their actions/behavior will no longer be judged solely by the standards of their own country. </p>
<p>Same thing applies when you’re going abroad or are participating in events in international venues. </p>
<p>For instance, rowdy British soccer fans learned that the hard way when their antics prompted other countries to go so far as to ban them from entering their respective countries to attend away games due to security/crowd control concerns. </p>
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<p>Some may disagree and do have the same right to not only express that disagreement, but also negatively judge those making such off-color jokes and those who defend them…including in areas such as college admissions/employment. </p>
<p>Several analysts/middle managers at a few major i-banks who thought it was great fun to hold similar types of parties/activities on company property and time ended up not only getting fired for such antics, but also got themselves and their companies sued for creating a hostile work environment on the basis of racial and sexual harassment.</p>
<p>JHS, It was you who brought up history to justify the affirmation that “Spain is a pretty racist society” because it had colonies and a societal structure similar to every other European nation. </p>
<p>You “wouldn’t assume for a minute that the Spanish team’s action was innocent. Maybe not intended as a direct insult, but a reflection of biases so deeply ingrained people aren’t even aware of them.” but you have no basis for suggesting this. It seems you are projecting American attitudes and motives on to the Spaniards.</p>
<p>I just believe that making open reference to the characteristics of races and ethnic groups in a humorous or symbolic context or is not tantamount to bigotry. By my definition, to be racist one has to believe one race is inherently superior to another. When there is no evidence in the reference of an underlying sentiment of superiority, I think we should give people the benefit of the doubt.</p>
<p>Does anyone else find it ironic that we are arguing about Spanish attitudes about race and culture as a result of a party them about Conquistadors?:o</p>
<p>And let us not forget, IthacaKid and others, that this party didn’t take place. It is not unlikely that some said “hoes” refused to attend. At least one time the sorority that I advise has declined an invitation to a mixer when the theme offended those in the house.</p>
<p>But what makes viewers in the U.S. the arbiter of what’s appropriate conduct in these circumstances? I would bet you anything that those who saw something wrong in the Spanish action were a small minority of the international viewers of the Olympics, including those from other Asian countries. And it would be an issue if it offended the hosts, but it didn’t. As you suggest, neither people in China, nor the Spaniards can relate to your experiences, and they are not responsible for trying to adapt their behaviors to your standards.</p>
<p>You know, if a Chinese team went to Spain and took a picture with everybody wearing matador hats, there would be a minority of Spaniards that would feel offended by the stereotype as they would rather not be associated with the practice of bullfighting. But the vast majority would be indifferent or think it was cute–so would the Chinese be expected to feel ashamed and apologize to the minority? I know that’s a cultural example rather than a racial one but I think the attitude and motives on the part of the visiting team would be the same in both cases.</p>
<p>And bullying is an aggressive, intentionally malicious act that cannot be compared to this, so while this reminds you of your awful experiences growing up, it really has nothing to do with it.</p>
<p>And yes, MizzBee. This discussion of the Spanish has gotten way off-topic. Sorry.</p>
<p>When people scratch their heads and ask why it’s offensive to name sports teams after Native American tribes, or general words for Native Americans (complete with logos stereotypically depicting members of that group), I think the best answer is that large numbers of Native Americans find it offensive, and it’s not for you to question it. Do you really think it would be possible to name a team the New York Jewboys, with a smiling Hasidic Jew on the logo? The Atlanta Negroes? The answer is, obviously not. This should be no different. It’s a relic of the 19th century.</p>
<p>Naming sports teams after native American tribes in itself isn’t offensive, per se, its the presentation of the mascot…red face, tomahawk chops, and costumes that aren’t even close to traditional, but if the group doesn’t like it it is their right, and I agree</p>
<p>As for the parties, just call them what they are “any excuse to dress badly, drink to much and show as much skin as possible”</p>
<p>I am blond and I am not offended when I hear a blond joke, but I am very offended if I hear a gay joke, racist so called joke</p>
<p>I guess it’s the idea of putting down those that already have prejudice in society that is irksome</p>
<p>Native Americans were shunned, killed, babies basically kidnapped, land stolen, etc
Mexicanworkers take jobs no one else wants and then are made fun of for it
Blacks are still discriminated against
Gays are beat up for who they are</p>
<p>So for people to add to the societal meanness for their own somcalled humor is just cold hearted, shallow and lazy</p>
Hmmm. So are the “Fighting Irish” of Notre Dame obviously offensive, or not? Would the Jewboys be offensive if it was the nickname of Yeshiva University? Would it be offensive to use a vanished civilization as a mascot–the Olmecs, say, or the Akkadians? There are a few Indian tribes that have allowed the use of their name as team nicknames–does that make it non-offensive, or are the Indian tribes just wrong about that? I don’t think any of this is obvious, and I think attitudes change over time. I never have understood, though, how anybody could defend the nickname “Redskins.”</p>
<p>Growing up, my elementary sports team was the Indians. It was the name for my mother and my grandfather as well. When I came home one time in my cheerleading uniform I proudly told my grandfather that I was an Indian!!! He smiled, and explain all the ways that I am not an Indian. He showed me how black his hair was, the high cheekbones, his dark skin and even laughed about how he drinks too much. He said HE was an Indian and that he was not a mascot. I never felt quite right about the school mascot after that. That was 1980. He lived through a lifetime of discrimination, was called Injun, passed over for jobs on the railroad, etc. Did he go to the school board and raise a fuss? It was offensive then to him and it is offensive to me now. (I am adopted so I don’t share his heritage. I am actually Irish)
I have no problem with the Seminoles since the tribe has fully sanctioned the name and they have a history of suppoting the team. I hate the Tomahawk chop as well. As for Fighting Irish, I see it as coming from embracing their original student body and not reacting to the taunts of a rival team. It is akin to how the Purdue Boilermakers got their nickname. They didn’t choose it, but were called that by rival school Wabash College, along with names like ‘grangers’, ‘pumpkin-shuckers’, ‘railsplitters’, ‘cornfield sailors’, ‘blacksmiths’ . Boilermakers stuck. According to some reports, Northwestern is the school that dubbed them the Fighting Irish, and it was meant as an insult. So if it is embraced by “their own” that is another thing.</p>
<p>Sounds like the frat’s goal of satire missed its mark, but I wouldn’t hold out the fellas as the standard bearers of discrimination and oppression. Inartful and not as funny as they thought, perhaps.</p>
<p>Other folks mentioned that some indigenous groups are quite content with athletic teams bearing the names of native peoples. I thought it was a loss when universities dropped the names Chippawas, Hurons and even Chieftains; Braves or warriors are harmless in and of themselves, as long as the graphic images are not demeaning or silly caricaturers (are you listening, Cleveland Indians?) but ‘Redskins’ has got to go! Donna, you might want to read about these famous baseball teams of days gone by; the Birmingham Crackers and the New York Black Cubans.</p>
<p>As regards Asians, I largely agree with Cobrat. I’ll add the point that in the U.S., it was the caricatures in war propaganda in years past that gave some Americans license to berate all Asians. And now there’s new resentment towards immigration from Asia and for the achievements made by these new Americans. Our American culture is integrating diverse elements, but it’s taking too long to eradicate true bias and its consequences.</p>
<p>Dang - I just looked up my husband’s HS and they are still the “Redskins” I knew they had been, but thought they would have changed. Maybe they should be the “Mill Rats” or something instead to keep the local flavor and tradition alive ;)</p>