Ranked National Universities With Low 6 Year Graduation Rates (2018 Stats)

Parents Forum
121

Here is the table with a few more schools mentioned in this thread, and with some corrections (the 7th column heading was incorrect in the previous table):


School          4/6Y GR Pell    AdmRt   AvGPA   >=3.5   <3.0    ACT     SAT
Alaska Fairbanks20%/31% 31%     77%     3.28    46%     25%     17-25   510-640/520-630
SIU Carbondale  26%/40% 45%     72%     3.24    31%     41%     20-27   510-650/510-650
New Mexico State19%/46% 47%     64%     3.49    52%     15%     18-23   450-580/460-580
New Mexico      22%/48% 37%     52%     3.44    41%     22%     19-25   520-630/510-630 
CUNY-CCNY       12%/50% 67%     41%     3.34    51%     20%     NR      NR
Missouri KC     22%/53% 38%     62%     3.38    47%     21%     21-28   NR
Kansas State    33%/63% 21%     95%     3.50    61%     13%     22-28   NR
Kansas          42%/63% 23%     93%     3.60    65%     12%     23-28   NR
Arizona State   46%/63% 30%     84%     3.54    55%     12%     22-29   560-670/560-680
Kentucky        44%/64% 26%     94%     3.51    62%     14%     23-29   550-650/530-650
Arizona         45%/64% 28%     84%     3.30    40%     25%     21-28   540-650/560-690
Oregon          53%/72% 24%     83%     3.59    59%      2%     22-28   550-650/530-640
Iowa State      47%/73% 19%     91%     3.64    62%      9%     22-28   548-682/544-652
122

These are overwhelmingly white schools in overwhelmingly white states. Consider that reaching black and Hispanic students may present an array of challenges that you aren’t allowing for here.

We can all have our personal theories as to why, but to pretend the phenomenon doesn’t exist is not an honest option.

Can you (or anyone here) name a predominantly black or Hispanic institution with a “good” graduation rate? I’d be at least mildly surprised. Otherwise, we’re basically arguing that schools shouldn’t serve URMs at all.

123

What is “good”?

Added UC Merced, Whittier, and Spelman (presumably what you are looking for) below for comparison:


School          4/6Y GR Pell    AdmRt   AvGPA   >=3.5   <3.0    ACT     SAT             R/E
Alaska Fairbanks20%/31% 31%     77%     3.28    46%     25%     17-25   510-640/520-630
SIU Carbondale  26%/40% 45%     72%     3.24    31%     41%     20-27   510-650/510-650
New Mexico State19%/46% 47%     64%     3.49    52%     15%     18-23   450-580/460-580 62% H/L
New Mexico      22%/48% 37%     52%     3.44    41%     22%     19-25   520-630/510-630 50% H/L
CUNY-CCNY       12%/50% 67%     41%     3.34    51%     20%     NR      NR
Missouri KC     22%/53% 38%     62%     3.38    47%     21%     21-28   NR
Kansas State    33%/63% 21%     95%     3.50    61%     13%     22-28   NR
Kansas          42%/63% 23%     93%     3.60    65%     12%     23-28   NR
Arizona State   46%/63% 30%     84%     3.54    55%     12%     22-29   560-670/560-680
Kentucky        44%/64% 26%     94%     3.51    62%     14%     23-29   550-650/530-650
Arizona         45%/64% 28%     84%     3.30    40%     25%     21-28   540-650/560-690
UC Merced       38%/66% 67%     68%     3.56    51%      0%     19-24   500-580/470-590 59% H/L
Whittier        60%/69% 40%     76%     3.55    53%     13%     20-25   520-613/510-600 52% H/L
Oregon          53%/72% 24%     83%     3.59    59%      2%     22-28   550-650/530-640
Iowa State      47%/73% 19%     91%     3.64    62%      9%     22-28   548-682/544-652
Spelman         69%/75% 45%     40%     3.60    68%      5%     22-26   550-625/520-590 98% B
124

Again, I do understand the issues facing most, possibly all, of the 15 ranked National Universities with sub-50% six year graduation rates.

Main issues are: Poverty, lack of readiness for college / low quality (ACT/SAT & GPA) applicant pool, commuter status, military transfers, & single parent household.

What I disagree with is the acceptance by several posters that these reasons somehow justify ranked National Universities (being ranked is indicative of adequate resources as many National Universities are unranked) producing a six year graduation rate below 50%. (Due to high military enrollment, the Univ. of Alaska at Fairbanks understandably has a low 6 year graduation rate.)

If the students facing these challenges are willing to invest their time, money and efforts working toward a 4 year college degree, then these National Universities should seek & implement practical solutions which would enable these students to receive permanent recognition for their efforts. Just because a school deals with difficult situations does not mean that failure is acceptable. And a sub-50% six year graduation rate is not success when the national averages are at least 60%. Solutions need to be found & implemented.

To the posters willing to accept sub-50% six year graduation rates for a four year degree, do you also accept low high school graduation rates as an unsurmountable hurdle because the students come from challenging circumstances & backgrounds involving poverty, teenage pregnancy, etc. ?

Complacency is not helping these students. Acceptance of excuses is not helpful to either the students or to the schools. Solutions are needed.

Perhaps it would be helpful to approach the problem of sub-50% graduation rates from a motivational standpoint. A system designed to encourage these students to push themselves toward completion of their bachelors degree which motivates via periodic rewards such as an Associates Degree or completion of a certificate program within a particular major or course of study.

Perhaps completion of either an associate’s degree from these national universities or achievement of completing a certificate program within one’s major could lead to a tuition discount for further study or some other form of motivation.

Just because I believe that these national universities can & should achieve a six year graduation rate above 50% and closer to the national average of above 60% does not mean that I do not recognize the issues. The difference is that I believe these national universities have an obligation to find solutions leading to higher 6 year graduation rates (although I acknowledge that UAlaska-Fairbanks’ issues with military transfers might require the university to permit one transferred to complete degree requirements online–as is common in the military).

TL;DR (too long, didn’t read version): Just because significant obstacles & problems are identified, does not mean that the schools should give up and accept the status quo of poor performance with respect to 6 year graduation rates.

Identifying the issues is the first step in finding solutions.

125

And admitting bias is helpful, too. OP clearly has some issue not just with the New Mexico schools but also with the state of New Mexico.

"I really do not want to denigrate UNM, but there is a reason that the state is known as “The Land of Entrapment”.

"FWIW: There is a reason that almost every year when the rankings of state educational systems is released that Mississipians say “Thank God for New Mexico”.

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/2181476-can-t-afford-any-college-70k-in-debt-no-matter-what-school-p1.html

126

Even the University of New Mexico recognizes that it is not graduating a high enough percentage of its students as another poster familiar with the situation has shared in this thread in an above post #68.

New Mexico has by far the highest high school drop out rate in the nation at approximately 29%.

The University of New Mexico offers scholarships with low qualifying standards to non-residents & to international students. In order to succeed at attracting these students, the school needs to attract recruiters to campus.

New Mexico’s neighboring state of Arizona has achieved dramatically higher results with respect to 6 year graduation rates despite similiar problems & despite high rates of admission (85%) based on low standards for admission. Both ASU & the UArizona produce much higher 6 year graduation rates than do UNew Mexico & New Mexico State University.

Excuses & diversionary tactics do not lead to solutions.

127

It’s interesting that you’d find your own words to be “diversionary tactics.”

128

@publisher Why do you persist in believing that these graduation rates result from complacency and feeble excuses?

UNM’s 4-5-6 year graduation rates have gone up quite significantly in recent years and 5 and 6 year rates have, in fact, approached or crossed the 50% threshold.

https://oia.unm.edu/facts-and-figures/graduation-rates.html

The university has been proactive in making this happen for reasons laid out in post #68 above. The lottery scholarships are structured to push students to graduate on time as they require consecutive, full time study for 8 semesters. As stated earlier, that is a tall order for many students who struggle socioeconomically.

The university operates a food bank. One in six residents of the state suffer from food insecurity

https://news.unm.edu/news/lobo-food-pantry-opening-on-campus

It offers the usual array of tutoring and advisement services as well as mental health counseling.

The university has faced consistent cuts to the state higher education budget over the last decade as described in this article.

https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~prb/the-first-to-go-funding-cuts-for-higher-education-during-the-great-recession/

It is unreasonable to expect a university to solve singlehandedly the economic and educational shortcomings of the state, especially when it has to do more with less.

129

Again, it comes back to college readiness, or the lack thereof. K12 is clearly failing in New Mexico; every other state also has an academic achievement gap. That is the elephant in the room. Fix/focus on the achievement gap in K12 and the state Unis will start to look like the state census.

Moreover, is it moral/ethical to accept a bunch of students into a 4-year when one knows with certainty that most will not graduate? Is that really helping the students, or just padding the salaries of the Uni faculty?

Wouldn’t it be better for such students (and society) to encourage them to attend a community college first, preferably at no charge, where they can strengthen their academic ability in smaller, close-knit classes?

130

As noted many times before, the Arizona schools actually enroll lower risk students (fewer from poor families, higher test scores, although UA does well despite weaker HS GPA) than the New Mexico schools. The Arizona schools also benefit from a more concentrated state population (with 80% of the state population living within commuting range of ASU and UA, so that the extra cost of moving to and living at the college is not required for many students).

131

That is probably why the admission rate for UNM is relatively low – apparently unlike at some of the comparison universities, a significant number of applicants’ academic records are so weak that the risk of non-completion is too high even within the idea of “giving everyone a chance [if realistic]”.

132

Deciding that certain actions are “moral/ethical” is a pretty slippery slope, as has been pointed out repeatedly:

  1. UMN doesn't accept "a bunch of students"; it has an acceptance rate of 52%; and
  2. There are multiple variables which affect some schools more than others-such as non-trad students, students with financial issues, students who are active duty military(and their spouses) who are looking to pick up a few credits before transfer etc etc.

So it’s clear that there’s no one-size-fits-all solution. And isn’t the best plan be for each state to make its own decisions?

But since this has now entered the realm of ethics, which schools on the blessed list would you encourage students not attend and instead attend CC?

The list of colleges you submit should be pretty interesting.

133

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-10-worst-us-states-for-education.html

Reveals why comparing the neighboring states of Arizona & New Mexico is relevant.

The above cited US News study published on May 27, 2018 reveals that New Mexico is the worst in the nation for Pre-K-12th grade education while Arizona is the third worst.

For higher education, New Mexico is ranked at #20, while Arizona is ranked at #19.

Compare rates of admission & six year graduation rates for UNM & NMSU with UArizona & ASU.

Univ. of New Mexico accepted just 52% of all applicants / 6 year graduation rate = 49%.

New Mexico State Univ. accepted 66% / six year graduation rate = 47%

Univ. of Arizona accepted 84% / six year graduation rate = 64%

Arizona State Univ. (ASU) accepted 85% / six year graduation rate = 69%.

While ASU & UArizona do NOT require either the SAT or ACT, both UNM & NMSU require either SAT or ACT scores.

134

You are still avoiding the fact that the actual enrolled frosh that the NM schools get are generally higher risk than the actual enrolled frosh that the AZ schools get (although UA (not ASU) should get some praise for good performance relative to enrolled frosh HS GPA).


School          4/6Y GR Pell    AdmRt   AvGPA   >=3.5   <3.0    ACT     SAT
New Mexico State19%/46% 47%     64%     3.49    52%     15%     18-23   450-580/460-580
New Mexico      22%/48% 37%     52%     3.44    41%     22%     19-25   520-630/510-630 50%
Arizona State   46%/63% 30%     84%     3.54    55%     12%     22-29   560-670/560-680
Arizona         45%/64% 28%     84%     3.30    40%     25%     21-28   540-650/560-690
135

UMN’s acceptance rate actually went down for the class of 2019. It went down to around 48-49% I believe. UMN is getting more and more competitive each year

136

Unfortunately, the SAT /ACT numbers for Arizona & ASU only cover a portion of their students as no standardized test scores are required, therefore the comparisons of student quality are not accurate.

137

hmm, deleted as IPEDS does not match CDS.

138

Post #124 showed us what is pretty obvious now that OP started this thread after he/she got beat-up pretty badly on another thread and needed to create this thread to justify his/her opinions. This wasn’t a friendly public service announcement thread.

139

ASU and UA are only test-optional if the applicant meets automatic admission criteria some other way (HS GPA or HS rank).

2017-2018 CDS section C9 percentages submitting SAT and ACT:

NMSU: 24% SAT, 82% ACT
UNM: 3% SAT, 87% ACT
ASU: 54% SAT, 61% ACT
UA: 43% SAT, 53% ACT

What does the above say?

  • NM is a strongly ACT-biased state, while AZ is slightly ACT-biased.
  • UNM (10-13%) and UA (4-47%) definitely had some students who submitted neither test. NMSU (0-18%) and ASU (0-39%) may have had some students who submitted neither test.
  • NMSU (6-24%) and ASU (15-54%) definitely had some students who submitted both tests. UNM (0-3%) and UA (0-43%) may have had some students who submitted both tests.
140

There are MUCH worse abuses in higher ed than UMN and CCNY, so I’m wondering why the ire here.

Why don’t the good citizens of CC take on for-profit colleges offering “degrees” in court reporting and tourism/travel? They are Pell mills, pure and simple. They take your Pell, you get a worthless degree in a field for which you could have gotten a job coming out of HS. Why not take on the cushy and comfortable world of third rate private (not for profit) colleges which act as an efficient clearinghouse for the not-so-academic scions of the upper middle and upper class to meet each other? A four year charm school masquerading as a college (that free Master’s degree in something or other is the dead giveaway). Or take on the bottom-fishing law schools whose students come out heavily in debt with a very low probability of passing the bar (if the past 5 years of bar admissions is any predictor, which it usually is)?

Why pick on a public U whose mission it is to educate kids who have many hurdles to jump over? I don’t understand the sociology of New Mexico beyond what I’ve read- but I know CUNY fairly well. Every time a kid who grew up in a homeless shelter makes it into a four year university an angel (a NYC public school guidance counselor perhaps?) should get wings, and every time that kid- or a first gen, recent immigrant who works a fulltime job and then takes classes at night to inch his/her way towards a degree, the administration of CUNY should get a victory lap.

These are not kids wondering “Is Wake Forest too preppy” or “is Trinity too bro for me”? These are kids helping to put a roof over the family’s head and food on the table WHILE going to college- a few credits at a time.

I see so many affluent kids who treat college (higher prestige colleges than those on Publisher’s list) like one long sorority party, or one long game of beer pong. They get their ticket punched with a degree in “not too hard” after four years of being wasted, being addicted to internet porn or online poker, or being addicted to spending money with mom’s credit card. Can we talk about THOSE schools??? Where folks with money and social capital stash their kids for four years???