It’s not my view of academia in general, just specifically the American Sleep-Away Camp experience. Consider a place like Copper Union. It’s a commuter college. It also has top-notch education. Do we ever get students on CC wringing their hands about their Cooper Union chances? We do not.
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Yes I agree, it’s both sad and true.
The lion’s share of mega donors to American universities are now baby boomers. They’re from the “boys will be boys” generation, and they still fraternize in an “old boys” network. They are very much about maintaining the status quo so that their grandkids can have the same college experience they did - one which is highly focused on creating social networks and perpetuating their old boys network.
The lure of bad behavior (what they might call “mischief”) in an atmosphere of safety and even impunity is likely irresistible to a certain group of people. And that group overlaps with the aforementioned megadonors.
Men like Leon Black and Leslie Wexner have their names plastered all over American higher education. Does that make students feel safe? Or does it make them feel that their admin will always bow to money over morals?
The tension between American academia and donor interest is impossible to ignore at this point IMO.
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That is an interesting thought. We never considered the Cooper Union either. I wonder why. It is not because I thought I wanted to send away the kids to a sleep away camp. But I thought the kids living independently helps them grow up – a halfway house to adulthood. I don’t mean party and get drunk regularly.
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C26 did, because along with its stellar engineering program it has a renowned architecture program. We visited it - great location kind of almost within NYU, very close to D19’s dorms. Apart from the difficulty of getting in (arch has something like a 4-6% admit rate), the “college experience” was a thing. It’s small, and it has one building for freshman housing and after that you’re on your own.
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Is there evidence that SA is less of a problem in countries where higher ed is government funded and not donor funded? I am thinking of India and its horrific gang r#$_ cases…
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Many of the women have been university students…
There are clearly cultural and/or general violence issues in some other countries, unfortunately including the one I am from. And it is an issue in countries where alcohol is banned so it’s not always a substance issue either.
I think the issue with US campuses is related to the large number of students who live on campus compared to other countries. Reports are that it is not necessarily lower in Europe but that assaults are more likely to occur off campus and not necessarily by other university students. Studies point out that regardless where they are, college-age female students seem to be most vulnerable to being assaulted.
This article also notes underreporting of assaults because of the fear of not being believed.
not being perceived as credible by police officers is a legitimate concern, and it is not surprising that approximately 70% of students chooses to rather disclose the assault to their (female) friends, a family member, intimate partners, psychologist or a social worker rather than to the police
It is additionally worrisome that police officers overestimate false allegations to be around 30% to 50% of reports, although their actual prevalence is around 2–6%
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As others have pointed out, it’s more a question of where the SA takes place.
Any SA reported on an American college campus is subject to that donor-led culture, which may lean towards covering things up or smoothing them over in order to maintain status quo.
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This entire thread makes me wonder - why the heck did I ever send my kids to college, away from home!!!
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It is too late for that now, and they came out ok :-). We kept the kids close by, but did not home-college them. It involves tricking them into thinking that’s where they want to go :-).
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I imagine there is a big difference in reporting though. There are also unfortunately cultural stigmas in some parts of the world that reduce reporting of rapes. There seems to be wide discrepancies in how official statistics reflect actual prevalence.
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I am sure underreporting exists, but I have not heard any rape allegations in college growing up in a different country. You read about random rape instances in the newspaper, but it is larger societal malaise.
I would argue it’s a bigger problem when it is more prevalent throughout society than concentrated on college campuses, especially if minors are involved as one of the posts above showed, but that’s off topic for this particular thread.
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My UK cousins (my kids ages- so early 20’s-30’s) got the same “never leave your drink unguarded, never drink from a punch bowl, never let a man bring you a drink at the pub” warnings as my own college kids did. And this is in a country where allegedly kids are “much better” with alcohol due to lower drinking age, laxer regulations in campus pubs and parties, etc. “Date rape” drugs are a big thing on Britain’s campuses (at least I am told) whether at UCL (commuters) or the “out in the boonies” colleges where everyone either dorms or lives in close to campus apartments.
The fact that these issues don’t get as much publicity as in the US? Not sure why. Many fewer kids own cars-- which I suspect means much more drinking without having to worry about getting home if everyone plans to walk or Uber. And maybe much less stigma around drunk college kids in a country where being a “soccer hooligan” is an actual cultural meme? But I don’t think we should kid ourselves that drunk university men in the UK are NOT spiking women’s drinks…
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We didn’t even give the “never leave your drink unguarded, never drink from a punch bowl, never let a man bring you a drink at the pub” advice to kids when they were going away to college, because they know this already. And they are boys. And one of them doesn’t drink, and the other didn’t want to hangout on campus on weekends because he said there is too much drinking and drugs, even if he occasionally drank.
My overwhelming concern when the boys were going to college is that I did not want them to be in a situation of being accused of SA by someone else, and then not being given the benefit of being innocent until proven guilty, which I think is the premise of title IX on campus (ie my understanding is that boys have reduced due process rights when on campus). There were newspaper articles over the years how the title IX process is stacked against boys once the university chooses to charge a kid with an offense.
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I just came back from parents weekend. My D26 is a first year at a small liberal arts college with no traditional frats (I’m told there is some quirky, everyone can join one or something that I’m told is pretty small), no football team, and does not appear to have a culture centered on drinking (though my kid is not a partier, so not the most in the loop on it). She did not go to school for a summer camp adventure, nor does it seem so most who choose her school. But the social part is of course a key factor.
All of that is true, and we all are still very concerned/vigilant about sexual assault on her campus because women of her age are always going to be at significant risk. Especially when living on their own.
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That’s not what I’d consider a contradiction. I consider a contradiction 2 statements that cannot both be true. The initial summons and complaint is not meant or required to be an exhaustive statement of every detail that was included in Doe’s 120 page interview with investigators. Presumably that and thousand of pages of other information will instead be provided and reviewed, if there is a trial.
Note that I am not saying there were no contradictions. I am saying that intentionally choosing to not list a specific detail from the interview in the lawsuit summons and complaint does not inherently mean there was a contradiction. Instead a contradiction would involve listing a different version of events in the interview and lawsuit, such that both versions cannot be true.
According to the lawsuit, she had 10 drinks over the past 3 hours prior to arriving at frat house, not 10 + 9. I don’t claim to know what persons in the frat house were thinking when she arrived, but I wouldn’t assume there is no way to recognize signs of being intoxicated, if a person can walk and dance.
The case does not solely depend on her account. For example, there are screenshots of a group chat, thousands of text messages between different involved persons, and accounts provided by a large number of other persons (not just 7 accused students).
However, Doe does mention having gaps in memory, particularly in later portion of events. In some of the text messages in following days, Doe contacts persons in the frat trying to figure out the details of what happened to her and who participated. Ketamine in particular is associated with gaps in memory like this, which contributes to why it is sometimes used as a “date rape” drug.
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If you mean the group chat, the series of messages began at 1:42 AM. I wouldn’t assume all 57 members of the group chat were in the frat house, awake, and actively reading the chat messages at that time. There also was a person who walked in to the room following the group chat message and said, “Ok we’re shutting down whatever the [expletive] this is.” Obviously he did not follow through. Perhaps he thought things were under control at that point due to stopping, with 5 of the accused 7 leaving the room (remaining 2 moved/led Doe to another room). That said, it is safe to assume that some persons saw the chat and did nothing.
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