Reasonable Accommodations for Religious Students

I’m waiting for grocery store clerks whose religion forbids drinking to refuse to check out customers buying wine or beer. Or Mormon clerks refusing to check out those buying alcohol. The earlier example about Saudis and women’s drivers licenses is spot on. There’s a huge difference between doing your job - for example, accepting payment on the store’s behalf for alcohol,and being forced to drink alcohol yourself. There are already issues with pharmacists who refuse to dispense oral contraceptives. Which in a rural community can be a huge problem.

If you’re not prepared to live in a community with diverse beliefs - and even more so, not prepared to follow the laws of the land, then go form a commune with like-minded people. If you do disagree with laws, the appropriate response is to use the legal system to petition for change, not ask for exemptions on a piecemeal basis. That’s undermining to society as a whole.

Somehow as a Catholic I managed to work in a Jewish hospital under a strictly observant Jewish department head - and we all managed just fine.

There already was a case of a grocery store clerk who refused to check out pork products, IIRC, saying he/she couldn’t touch them as they went down the conveyor belt and got put into the bag… I think it was at a grocery store in Minnesota - a Somali Muslim. I don’t recall the outcome.

When a person knows the job requirements at the outset, then I don’t see why an employer should make any accomodation. When the job changes after the person is employed, then I could see it.

In her court filings (though not in her public remarks) Kim Davis says that she has a religious objection to having her name on the contaminated documents. But she has not, in her public posturing, her filings to the court or her testimony to the judge, shown an iota of interest in balancing her religious beliefs with the duty of the state of Kentucky to follow the law. She asked for the state to stop having any county clerk issue marriage licenses, and she asked for the governor to call the legislature into special session to rewrite the laws. Neither of these are reasonable, minor accommodations.

Volokh is correct that if she approached the state with a request for a minor accommodation, state law would probably require the state to grant it-- but she hasn’t done that. Instead she has grandstanded and done everything she could to deny marriage licenses to gay people, in her county and in every other county.

The Muslim flight attendant didn’t try to stop people from drinking on planes, or grandstand about the evils of alcohol; the attendant just didn’t want to serve the alcohol. It’s not the same.

The Muslim flight attendants religious accomodation requires the other flight attendants to do more work, which is an imposition on them. If you don’t want to serve alcohol, don’t be a flight attendant. That’s a situation where the employee changed, not the requirements of the job. Now if she’d been working at a restaurant and the restaurant just got a liquor permit and the requirements of the job changed to serving alcohol, that’s a bit different.

Back in my old days as a baby HR person, I remember being trained to ask job applicants if they could do (a) job requirement, (b) job requirement, and © job requirement. Of course we didn’t ask, Are you an observant Jew? We’d just say that the job sometimes required working into the evening and occasionally on the weekend; would you have any problem with that requirement?. And, of course, we had to ask the same questions of all applicants. The applicant had a duty to respond if, for example, they couldn’t work on Saturday, which the job required, or if they couldn’t lift more than 25 pounds, which the job required, or if they couldn’t serve alcohol, which the job required.

Admittedly the job for Kim Davis changed after she took it, but I see no difference between the new requirement for her job and another situation where Saturday work becomes necessary for a worker in a retail store. If you can’t handle the requirements of the job even with a reasonable accommodation, you’ve got to quit the job.

This is easy to accommodate if there are scanners. You obviously have never bought beer or wine in a Massachusetts supermarket! I don’t know if it’s still the case, but when I used to visit there, . no one under a certain age–I’m not sure if it’s 18 or 21–can “serve” or sell liquor and it’s interpreted to cover supermarket cashiers. So, if you end up with a teenage cashier, she can’t touch the wine or beer. The customer removes it from his cart, scans and packs it. I don’t see why older cashiers who object to liquor couldn’t do the same thing.

Not necessarily. It may just be that the other FAs do different work. There are many different tasks to be done on an airplane. Maybe it is possible to switch around the work so it’s fairly even but she doesn’t have to serve alcohol.

I don’t think so – at least not on relatively short flights.

Doesn’t it seem to you that at a certain period in the flight, all of the flight attendants are fully involved in going down their assigned rows and serving the passengers drinks and snacks? I know that FAs perform other tasks as well, but they don’t do them during this period of time.

I saw a silly thing online about “the 10 professions most likely to attract psychopaths”. One was civil servant!

“There’s power in the roles of civil servants, and psychopaths almost single-mindedly crave power”.

The airline would have to work out schedules so there would be no more than one Muslim FA per flight or both the other FAs and the passengers would be inconvenienced. Remember the cabbies at MSP airport? A large percentage of them were Somalis and refused to carry dogs or alcohol in their cabs. People needing a cab were waiting for long periods of time for a non-Muslim cab driver to pick them up at the airport.

If you’re Amish don’t answer those ads for ‘drive with Uber’ and then complain you weren’t hired because of your religious beliefs.

That airline runs small airplanes where there may be only one flight attendant- it is a problem when the only one available refuses to do the job.

I has always bothered me that those who refuse to do such simple tasks as turning on a stove or light switch and still ask someone else to do it. Seems to be cheating on the rules to me. Or at least hypocritical- the task is beneath you on that day but you can let someone else do it??? To be truly observant go without the feature you refuse to deal with yourself. I’m certain thousands of years ago when the rules were made they would have done things differently if they knew what the future held. Deal with the consequences of your beliefs without relying on nonbelievers to cheat for you (make them follow your rules regarding your ability to do those tasks that benefit you).

That clerk has broken her sworn oath- a sin. She picks and chooses which rules to follow. NOT at all a real Christian.

But the employer has every right to hire someone who can perform the duties of the job and to not hire those who cannot. Whether the reason is their religion or because they never learned to drive. Which is why one doesn’t say “Oh, you’re Amish. So you can’t drive and therefore I won’t hire you.” Instead, it’s, “Oh, you can’t drive. Therefore I won’t hire you.” There’s no religious discrimination in the latter case; it’s that the applicant can’t do the required duties of the job.

You are cheating if you ask someone to do it on the Sabbath itself. You are not cheating if you prearrange, with another person or by use of an electronic device, to have it done at a particular time.

And it’s not that the task is beneath you. It’s just forbidden on the Sabbath. Lots of thing are forbidden on the Sabbath, and it may seem to those of us from different backgrounds that the choices are arbitrary. (For example, you can read but not write. The observant students I knew would save reading assignments for the Sabbath and schedule assignments that involved writing for other days.)

If you’re outside the culture, as I am, it may seem weird. But to those within it, keeping up the longstanding traditions of their people is meaningful.

This is a Christian concept and therefore very different from the Jewish and Muslim concepts that have taken up much of this thread. Can you explain a little more about the idea of sin and why this clerk’s actions would fall into that category?

@marian:
When Kim Davis took office, she swore to do the duties of her position,so help her God, so technically she violated an oath before God, which would be a sin (interestingly, the Jehova’s Witness believe that oaths before God themselves are sins, go figure). She would argue that swearing an oath that required violating what she saw as God’s law made the oath invalid, but the person who wrote that is technically correct (what it leaves off, of course, is that the ‘so help me God’ is by this time a piece of historical language, when you swear an oath, whether you say “So Help Me God” or “on my honor” or “I understand”, you are legally bound, God has zip to do with it from the standpoint of the state).

Kim Davis supposedly has been saying that if they removed her name from the certificates, it would be okay with her, but I don’t buy that, I think that lawyer is buying into a fantasy. A certificate like that would say something like “Kim Davis, Clerk of the County XXXX”, it is a seal of the office. FIrst of all, I don’t know if the state could make that accommodation, with legal documents like that, normally the office holder of the person has to be on it, the signature I vaguely recall is part of the certification, and it could be that if they took her name off the certificates they would no longer be valid. It could be they could make a certificate with a blank name line, and one of the other people in the office would sign it/stamp it, but it depends on the locality and their laws. More importantly, even if Davis asked for that accommodation, it is likely the legislature would refuse to do so, the same way it is unlikely she will be impeached, conservative republicans dominate their senate, and I doubt they would want to accommodate this case, given that Davis is now a Martyr to all kinds of things, states rights, persecution of Christians, etc.

As far as accommodating religious belief in the job goes, the courts have been very clear, even with the bogus “religious liberty act” claim. If a job requires someone to do something, and they can’t do it based on religious belief, if the duty can be done by someone else, or if another accommodation doesn’t interfere with the job (wearing a turban or a beard for religious reasons, for example, time to pray during the day) then that is fine. With liquor at a checkout (they allow sales in supermarkets now in NJ, too), it would be easy, they always have registers that are non alchohol sales, usually because the person is under 21, but it could be for religious reasons, too. The butcher who won’t handle pork could be accommodated if they had multiple butchers (though to be honest, a muslim would not work as a butcher at a store, nor would an observant Jew, the non pork items would be non Halal or Kosher slaughtered, so they wouldn’t want to handle it). However, when it primarily affects a job, like the pharmacist not prescribing birth control or abortifacients, and let’s say that is the only pharmacist on duty, no accommodation would need to be made, because it would hurt the business.

Likewise a public official could say they can’t issue a certificate because it violated their beliefs, or for example marry a gay couple, as long as there was someone else to do it, if there wasn’t, they can’t just say “well, you can get married by anyone else, or drive 100 miles to another clerk”, because that person is crippling the entire office (and there is a long chain of precedent on this, that Scalia et al would have a hard time ignoring). If the law requires the clerks signature on the form, and she doesn’t want it there, then her obstinance is basically shutting down that office, as it has up until now. More importantly, if they do make that accommodation (unlikely, given the political climate), will that office dutifully issue those certificates, or once she is back in the office, will she find ways to obstruct doing her job?Her son works in the office (gee, what a surprise), and the court specifically told him that if suddenly the office can’t do marriage certificates because the computer is down, they can’t find the paper certificates, he would be held in contempt, and there is a strong case to be made that even if she is allowed back, that office would suddenly be unable to issue the certificates.

What is interesting is that apparently most people in Kentucky think that his is making their state look like a joke, and they want this over with, whether it means her resigning or being impeached, but apparently the state senate doesn’t believe it. I thought it was really funny, I found a link off Yahoo to Newsmax (A “Christian” news site), and Huckabee was going on how Gavin Newsome was not impeached or put in jail for issuing same sex marriage licenses before it was legal; what that drooling moron, of course, forgets is that when the court told Newsome to cease and desist, he did, that once that court issued an injunction and told him he was violating the law, he did, unlike Davis who refused to follow the court’s ruling. She was put in jail for defying the court, something Newsome did not do.

Thank you for the detailed analysis, @musicprnt.

The Kentucky clerk needs to move to a sanctuary city. The precedent for selective enforcement of the ‘laws on the books’ has been set. She could then file a discrimination lawsuit against the sanctuary city for choosing to enforce the marriage license law and NOT other laws.

I think it would be an interesting case to watch.

Actually, I was asking why post #4 assumed that an Orthodox Jewish person would have a problem with someone else doing something that is forbidden to an Orthodox Jewish person, since all of the Jewish people (including the occasional Orthodox) I have encountered had no problem with others doing things forbidden to them.

"I’m waiting for grocery store clerks whose religion forbids drinking to refuse to check out customers buying wine or beer. Or Mormon clerks refusing to check out those buying alcohol. The earlier example about Saudis and women’s drivers licenses is spot on. "

There’s a distinction between private sector employees (store clerks) and public sector ones, though. I deliberately chose the example of a Saudi clerk and drivers licenses because it is public sector.

Maybe a fireman who refuses to put out the fire at a home of a couple living in sin??

Right, ucb. You asked in good faith, because you didn’t see the distinction between “I don’t object if you ( non-Jew) turn the light on during Sabbath, even though I can’t” and “I can’t actually ask you to turn the light on for me.” That’s why I said you acted in good faith in your question. Now you know. I think it’s pretty silly, but no one asked me.

Considering the habits of the current generation of young adults, I can see entire cities going up in flames.

Re: one FA on a flight. Yes, plenty of examples. Alaska’s Horizon runs commuter flights under 1 hour with one FA per plane. The FA serves beverages which include a choice of one kind of free beer and one kind of wine. If FA would announce “sorry, no booze today,” people who commute on these flights would complain loud and clear.