@Ynotgo the property taxes support the school districts in New Jersey for the most part, which is why the property taxes here are beyond outrageous, and why there is such disparity between rich districts and poor districts. As for AP, in my district, a neighbor of WWP, my parents pay $50 per AP class, plus the cost of the test.
Oh don’t be silly, we heard in another thread that “everyone” in NJ visits 6-10 colleges, so SURELY that applies to the kids in Atlantic City High School. (/sarcasm)
(Disclaimer - I was born in AC and my father went to ACHS when demographics were much different)
Yes. At that level, it looks reasonable. However, the devil is in the details.
Sort of like how you can ask the same physics question on many different levels.
For comparison, CS 61B at Berkeley has a similar number of weekly small programming assignments, but has four smaller projects instead of one big project. But Berkeley (for the College of Letters and Science, which most CS 61B students are presumably enrolled in) has less selective frosh admissions than Penn.
While I am not in the camp of those who are proponents of the trend toward ever more AP classes and exams, I am among those who believe we must not shunt our kids away from their natural pathways of growth or areas of interest, thus stunting them.
We have been talking about workloads that some children can reasonably handle, and not necessarily the genius class of kids, but I thought this quote might be appropriate for some arguments made in this thread, particularly as relates to some points by @fretfulmother:
“Genius can only breathe freely in an atmosphere of freedom. Persons of genius are, ex vi termini, more individual than any other people—less capable, consequently, of fitting themselves, without hurtful compression, into any of the small number of moulds which society provides in order to save its members the trouble of forming their own character.”
-John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
…but this doesn’t prove that Penn’s CIS program is not the same as the CIS major at Penn State or Indiana University or Washington State. There may be an equally difficult class in the computer science major at each of those universities.
Besides, the difficulty or the weeding out of a particular class or major doesn’t speak to its quality. Different programs have different styles, but a nurturing program that tries to help everyone succeed isn’t inherently worse than a stressful program with weed-out classes.
And of course taking many AP classes in high school can be stressful. The question is not whether or not you get stressed out; the question is HOW stressed out and how you adjust to the stress. One could argue that taking many college-level classes in high school maybe shouldn’t be a prerequisite to doing well in college? The high school curriculum at a good high school should be enough.
Yes, good college*-prep* high school course work is generally considered sufficient preparation for college work; one should not have to have had college level material while in high school (whether from AP, IB HL, or college courses taken while in high school). Very few colleges actually require any knowledge of college-level material among their frosh, except for a very few that expect knowledge of calculus, and possibly foreign language if one considers three or four years of high school foreign language to be equivalent to a semester or few of college foreign language. Learning college level material (whether from AP, IB HL, or college courses taken while in high school) is a bonus for advanced students, who can sometimes get advanced placement in college to open up more elective options or gain schedule flexibility instead of having to take all of the frosh level courses.
Of course, with the “arms race”, it may be difficult to gain admission to a highly selective college with just college-prep courses if one is in a high school that offers AP or IB HL courses.
@julliet “There may be an equally difficult class in the computer science major at each of those universities.”
There may be a similar distribution and even courses that are this time consuming for the students. However, the level of the average student coming in is not even close to the same. The grades, test scores, and coding experience coming into the program are all significantly higher.
True, it is one example, but I would ask you to prove that all STEM programs are the same. That is the usual cc: assertion. The evidence usually provided is that most of them have the same abet accreditation. The error in that logic is that abet only establishes a minimum, not what the program actually does.
ABET accreditation only applies to engineering and engineering technology, not science or math generally. It exists for CS, but there are good CS major degree programs without ABET accreditation. Yes, for engineering and CS, ABET accreditation is just a minimum standard (but a relatively high one in the context of college curricula), so that colleges could go beyond it in content and rigor if they choose.
It is not always the case that a college with more selective admissions will have more rigorous courses in a given subject. @bernie12 has written about comparing science courses at various universities in various replies in this thread: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1619090-schools-that-are-considered-to-be-on-ivy-league-level-for-undergrad-p1.html .
@ucbalumnus “It is not always the case that a college with more selective admissions will have more rigorous courses in a given subject.”
Absolutely true. There is no question that top schools can be uneven in the difficulty of their programs. I did not assert that.
I am also not asserting that a top student at a lower ranked school can’t get the same education. They can, if they are willing to make the effort. My point is that, for the average student, there is a significant difference.
@Much2learn - not “disingenuous” just mistaken - in my taking your lack of an apostrophe for a lack of a comma.
As a teacher, I find your stated support for our work to be weaker, if you simultaneously express such disdain for our professional representative organization. Many people in middle class jobs would be better off, if labor unions were again more prevalent, as they were in much of the boom years when “average” people could earn better livings as has been discussed even on this thread.
(I also find it confusing, your assertion that an organization could be “self-interested”.) No organization is perfect (to wit - the AMA does not always come out with positions supported by all doctors), but I peruse all of the union emails and publications, and the top priority is absolutely the education of every child, the whole child.
@ucbalumnus Interesting this is being discussed
Yes, after more reflection, I’m guessing that STEM depts even selective universities simply adopt different models and culture.
I think I was more vitriolic toward depts at selective U’s that didn’t have many teachers assessing students at higher cognitive levels because I forget how much grade inflation (and fluffy syllabi) there was in high school (even in AP/IB curriculum). Departments can pretty much provide a harder version of HS classes (particular those with the lower part of the cognitive pyramid being used which are a lot in combination exams with less items than HS exams and more reliance on machine graded prompts where there is no partial credit) and expect lower averages. At schools with less competitive students, grades will be curved to some acceptable mean and at the selective university, you can pretty much leave the average as it is (so the lower than HS grades are do to the competition and relative lack of inflation-
Taking chemistry which I know best- These would be the schools with general and organic chemistry averages that are typically in the mid-high 70s or even hit the 80s.
Some STEM departments at certain selective schools have a different culture where testing the upper range of the “pyramid” (I refer to the Bloom pyramid- so these teachers probably have more conceptual questions and algorithmic learning will only get you so far. They may also make assessments more “reading intensive” with prompts being a passage or more of material or involving additional figures. The first type just asks the question in ultra-straight forward way. Not much synthesis or extrapolation is needed) is much more common (curves and scaling of exams is more common). If you go to such a university planning to take courses in those departments, then no doubt AP/IB will at least help you. The general chemistry teachers at my alma mater claim that the course is “introductory” (and it is in the general sense) but that runs counter to the fact that there is an Aleks assessment before it that seeks to teach students basic chemistry concepts (and can also discourage those who take a long time to complete it). After that, it is no surprise when most instructors have more higher level (I would say a 3) exam and problem-set prompts than teachers in depts where the former model is more common. In this case, AP/IB level students will have a clear advantage over mere college prep exposed students simply because it is easier to do higher level problems if you already have high levels of exposure to the content before coming.
Grade-wise, these take some getting used to, especially for freshman who are high achieving in HS- Exam means in the low 70s are common along with the 60s.
*Note, this is applicable to other STEM departments. And also, it can be less valid in the case of CS departments where some schools (especially schools with more esteemed CS programs) try to have most professors adopt teaching methods that don’t fit into either (like some programs may have much more project based learning even at the intro. level)
For depts that do appear to adopt one of those, I’m not sure which one provides the bigger advantage to AP/IB exposed students. I suspect the first because since exams and assignments are more or less standard level, if the mean is an 80 with lots of inexperienced students, achieving a 90+ for an experienced student isn’t as hard. The second model seems as if it is even trying to challenge a lot of experienced students (basically ensuring that 90+ or even 85+ isn’t that common). For selective schools, especially if engineering or pre-health (thus having to take courses in several STEM depts- It is very likely you’ll run into at least 1 instructor that employs the 2nd model unless one is ultra picky with course selection), it may be best to air on the safe side by at least trying the AP/IB courses available. I’m sure a great HS college prep curriculum would help, but I question whether or not most STEM profs. in such a track ever give assessments like the IB or AP exam level. Many schools with instructors airing in the second category give evening exams that may indeed be on par with or higher than those AP exams. AP/IB affords the virtue of at least getting the student exposure to that level of assessment. I think both types of classes can be frustrating to traditionally high-performing students. In the first, your raw ability vs. talented peers is exposed and that can be humbling. In the 2nd case, you may have to learn in a completely different way and studying “a lot” more but using the same methods as in HS may end up very counterproductive and you can earn far lower scores than in HS. In this case, you may study a lot and still be unable to even start certain problems which can be painful (often the first type of class, when you slip and earn whatever the relatively high mean is, it isn’t because you flat out didn’t understand a problem more so than mistakes adding up or forgetting details/factoids for T/F, fill in the blank type problems, or lower-level multiple choice. Such imperfections may never show up on an HS transcript because HW in HS classes can count upwards to 50% of the grade).
Outside of STEM, I don’t know if there is much of an advantage of AP/IB (maybe IB which involves more writing) over just a good college prep. program. Depends on the school and major a student aspires to go to I guess. Some schools may give notorious reading and writing loads in things such as humanities and social science courses (though whether that will happen at the introductory level is questionable). Learning how to “actually” write a research paper is probably very important if attending a selective with freshman English requirements or freshman seminar requirements, especially if the school is medium-sized or small because teachers with smaller classes are more likely to have higher workloads and grade more seriously. However, there are multiple ways to prep. for this in HS. And in general, college humanities social science and humanities courses never seemed as if they were much about the “stress” you see in an AP History or political science course for example. Introductory and certainly deeper courses were not very stressful, but were more about using all the time on your hands to produce quality writing or contribute well good insight in discussions. There usually aren’t worksheets and frequent testing (tests often are easy as well…instructors sometimes make full-blown study guides to make sure most students do well. They make their grade distributions through how they grade papers. The tests merely function as a “check-up”) in such classes, just lots of reading in the case of a quality class. College Social sciences and humanities have a much more hands off approach. STEM is where students need to get used to and prepared for “stress”.
“As a teacher, I find your stated support for our work to be weaker, if you simultaneously express such disdain for our professional representative organization. Many people in middle class jobs would be better off, if labor unions were again more prevalent, as they were in much of the boom years when “average” people could earn better livings as has been discussed even on this thread.”
I understand that labor unions are important, and do things to help a lot of people. Good teachers deserve a lot more than they get, in my opinion. However, the facts are that the Teacher’s Union has consistently acted to the detriment of children. They have consistently prevented schools from removing incompetent teachers, or rewarding the best ones. When the union is allowed to take actions that are detrimental to children, that is a step too far in my opinion.
As long as the masses are dumb enough to allow them to put themselves before the interest of the country, the performance of the average student will remain stagnant at an unacceptable level. They are certainly not the only contributor to these problems, but they are a significant one.
Waiting2exhale, thanks for the reminder. I did sound arrogant. Not to minimize my error, but please remember the article that started this thread is about an ethic divide with Asians on the side of the status quo. My district is ethnically similar to WWP and parents here have started to become vocal about the same concerns. When we moved here 28 years ago, it was a very different place; I have watched the schools change in ways both positive and negative. I think communities have every right to decide what they want their schools to be, and should protest changes they feel are detrimental to the well-being of their children. We all desire civility and tolerance, but there are some things we should not tolerate. Those who don’t live with this environment don’t seem to understand that a live and let live philosophy doesn’t work because the pressure imposed on this group of children by their parents and culture is affecting all the kids.
One mom in the article mentioned her 4th grade son’s perception that he was doomed to failure because he didn’t have anything on his resume yet. How did that idea enter his head? In elementary school, several classmates told my son he would “only” end up in community college rather than Princeton unless he went to summer school like they did. Of course families can counter these messages, but only to a certain extent. Culture is powerful, and the opinions of peers are powerful. D stopped sitting at lunch with the students in her AP class because they were always so tense about exams, and all the conversation revolved around test scores. It was starting to stress her out too. The kids have reported many a meltdown by classmates who know that they will be punished when they get home that day because of their grade on the test that just got returned. Sorry if it’s not PC to say, but I think this is a poisonous thing. Clearly, no one is perfect, all groups have their characteristic flaws, and this sort of pressure on kids is not confined to just one ethnicity. Here in NJ near WWP, though, there is an ethnic pattern to it.
Should we allow the different values and educational methods of a minority group change the existing educational culture? And if so, to what extent? This is an issue parallel to whether we should allow Muslims to create enclaves in which their laws reign supreme. Actually, this will soon be an issue where I live also. We can respect all people, but the United States has been a great and free country to which people from all over the world continue to flock, including for education. Should we now make our schools look like those of the countries from whence come the immigrants? Thanks to years of prosperity, many American children have been at liberty to enjoy carefree childhoods. Do we still want that for our kids? Do we really need to give that value up to compete in the national and global marketplace?
@GFG:
I think that this country most has as its idea of itself a notion similar to our ideas of the dictionary, and most emblematically, of the Constitution. It expands its language to encompass a new idea of what should be included, in the case of the dictionary. ; It considers how its basic principles and tenets are best reflected and to be understood in light of an examination of the current condition, or temperature, of society and government, in terms of the Constitution.
Scalia aside, the nation has tried to undertake the work of recognizing that we must be an expansive society, and to recognize how the different populations which come to these shores re-define and re-shape our society, without demanding that there be no cultural dispersion that takes place here on our shores, in our communities. (This is my best version of who we can be, not necessarily who we have been. Still…)
How far do we go toward change, or a meeting in the middle, before we reach a tipping point, or a statutory designation of what the parameters of primary and secondary education and instruction look like? (As well, I must then I must ask who ‘we’ is if not also those born on these shores, or naturalized into our ranks.)
I have no answer but to refer to fretfulmother, again. Who are we to determine what other people do for and with their children?
Who are we to say that primary and secondary education will prepare all of today’s students for what will surely be different expectations to show educational credentials strong enough to gain entry into dynamic, challenging college programs tomorrow? Maybe the current is changing irrevocably; I sense that it is.
This sentence seems like the type of thing that politicians playing up fear of immigration or cultural diversity probably say or hint at (particularly if one deletes the word “educational” to make it broader in terms of cultural change in general).
Perhaps it is, ucbalumnus, but there may be some lessons to be learned from.what is happening in France and Belgium. Secondly, the cultural change here is being sparked mostly by foreign nationals on work visas, not naturalized citizens.
I don’t think a “we” should tell people what they should do with their kids unless it’s abuse we are dealing with. But perhaps the public school should establish a number of standard tracks for academic progression. If you want your child to go beyond the most advanced track, eg. do college level math in elementary school now instead of middle school (since schools like WWP are already accommodating the latter) then you need to home school or find a private school.
Why does the desire to have better or even more intense and competitive educational experiences have to be attributed to the influence of “other” cultures more so than the US’s own desire to figure this out? Last I remember, many government figures (especially at the federal level) often hammer home how the US is falling behind academically and many industry leaders in certain sectors also mention how domestics are becoming less competitive. If I hear all of this rhetoric, I need not be of a certain ethnic group to become on edge and perhaps give in to these concerns. This economy is also a contributor (puts a premium on high academic achievement and the idea that an “elite” degree can help a child circumvent the problem of the uneven economic recovery job wise). Was immigration and other cultures blamed or associated with this sort of thing during the space race (where apparently at one point the US considered switching to the metric system)? Don’t point fingers in other directions, it starts with all Americans and its politicians. This time, the debate just happened to make it to a specific locale. A certain cultural group is all to convenient a scapegoat. There have recently also been other changes or debates in society or public opinion that so clearly came from within and were not exactly induced by “others”.
Also, I just love when things like this happen as many would claim that:" other poorer school districts in the US could only dream to have a debate over this issue" which suggests they offer very limited rigor and ways to academically “stress” their students in the first place (parents in these districts almost wish their students had more homework for example). To many, this may sound like what we call “First World Problems”, basically problems of the privileged.
Good point.