Reforms to Ease Students’ Stress Divide a New Jersey School District

Parents Forum
601

I’ve said it before, but it bears repeating: if your kids are stressed because of competition, the lowering of stress starts at home. It’s not clear to me how @TheGFG was confident that her own kids refrained from being depressed because of her parenting, yet felt that parents could not in general have the duty/ability to lower kids’ stress levels.

There’s no sense in saying, “I buy into the system enough to want a ‘good’ school district, and am privileged enough to get one, but it better cater to exactly my level and no higher.”

From birth, parents can and should be helping kids feel their best about running their own races with grace and humility, learning as much as they can, and aiming to do right in the world. Tell your children: It’s not your business what any other child or family is doing, but you can wish them well. You are not in competition for some grand life prize. If you have the wonderful opportunities to expand your knowledge thanks to a great school district, drink up all the knowledge you can and be respectful to your teachers. Learn from everyone you encounter, and realize that what you get out of an education is what you put into it. If your friends seem stressed out, show them that they can get unconditional love and support from you and even from our family if needed. There are hundreds of truly top-notch colleges, and thousands of truly top-notch careers, and it’s not a zero-sum game, because “top-notch” means the best match for you personally. People who try to tell you that education is a zero-sum game can be left to their own anxieties, because you don’t have to believe that, and it’s not true in the end.

The part of this conversation that reveals itself to be NOT all stressed-children-causing-pearl-clutching is when it devolves into: “…and that is why it’s too hard for normal people like us to get into Harvard like we deserve”.

The only reason that we have a recent spate of articles about the stress of the young 1% is that they have the clout to be heard in our culture and it’s now a click-bait trend to bend statistics in this way.

602

" I don’t understand what having classes for ECs means @rhandco ? Do you mean they dedicate a class period for Science Olympiad? Don’t most schools dedicate class time for sports, debate, band and choir? How is Science Olympiad different? It is a competitive team. "

Yes, a dedicated period for Science Olympiad, which is only an extracurricular.

No, most high schools in NJ do NOT have a dedicated period for debate and sports teams, or any other clubs. Science Olympiad is a local, state, and national program:
https://www.soinc.org/

I have heard that in some states, they either let students skip gym for their sports practice, or have team sport practice during the day. Band in my children’s HS is a dedicated period, and it is across four grades so would be taken out like a sports team practice I suppose.

This thread is certainly pulling out stereotypes. The “my kid isn’t supersmart, just works hard” stereotype - which implies that other kids don’t work hard. That drives me nuts because I could copy and paste many emails from college students, some in the honors program which are similar to Ivy League GPA and SAT, saying that they “deserved” to get an A, and that they “worked hard” so should have gotten an A. One student missed an A by a few tenths of a percentage point. Emailed me 10 times whining and crying. Yet there was a student who had near 100% in the course; should I give an A to a hardworking student who gets a 89.9% when there was a student who got 99.9%?

As for those who tout their children as "working hard’ in music, I’m assuming they paid zero dollars outside of their children’s band or choir in school in order to get to All-State?

I don’t want to get into “Asian countries” because the most commonly cited “better than the US in math and science” are diverse enough that one person’s experience is not the norm. I know vastly educated people from India, and people from India who taught English there, then came here and didn’t know basic English grammar. I know Chinese students who blow away all my scales, so much I have to discount them, and Chinese students who cannot add or subtract. If they are from the same country, what does that mean?

(and as for Taiwan in the 50s and 60s, I worked with more than a few native Taiwanese when in industry in the 1990s, and not one was the “best and brightest” in our group, so not sure if calculus in middle school helped them at all! It was more likely during my industry experience that a “self-taught” person would become a maven or go-to guy or gal because they learned “outside the box” and in research particularly, that was what was important. Plus - my Russian friend was telling me “we learned calculus in 6th grade” when upon further discussion, he said that he learned a few concepts of calculus in 6th grade - dy/dx and the idea of an integral being the area under the curve, but REAL calculus a.k.a. what would be HS calculus not even AP Calc AB was not until 10th grade…)

603

Don’t confuse the Mainland with the ROC as their educational systems are very different due to factors such as the former having gone through a period when the entire educational establishment and R & D centers were practically shut down for a decade due to the Chinese Cultural Revolution(1966-~76).

Also, every population will have those who are at the bottom end of the distribution curve, but will have differing perceptions of how to treat/perceive them.

For instance, no one seems to make anything of adults…even well-educated professionals struggling with simple arithmetic to make change without using a calculator here in the US or struggling to understand/read poems* in one’s native language, IME. On the flipside, exhibiting this among friends from abroad…especially Middle/Eastern Europe and Asia does tend to prompt some to openly comment on one’s “lack of common sense” or worse, a sense that one’s education is “woefully deficient”.

  • Full Disclosure: Up until very recently, I've struggled heavily with reading, analyzing, and understanding poetry as opposed to prose literature. I used to dread it when my English/Lit classes in K-12 got around to covering poems whereas to my parents and extended family members**, reading and enjoying poetry was something one should have had no issues with from late elementary school onwards.

** They had no issues with and even tried encouraging me to read English/American poems they themselves enjoyed. They were quite disappointed when I not only failed to bite, but bolted at 11.

604

What did your mother’s siblings take for math in high school? In the US, if someone only take calculus their freshman year of college, they are on track to take classes like functional analysis or topology their senior yer. Even if they only take one math class a semester.

605

Taiwan Junior HS curriculum (Grades 7 through 9):

http://wenr.wes.org/2010/05/wenr-may-2010-feature/

606

Once tracking starts after middle school, students expected to specialize even within a given academic track.

This means that if one goes on the Arts/humanities/social science tracks in an academic high school, one doesn’t have to take many or even any further math courses after calculus. Even so, some older relatives who went on this track in HS ended up in math/science heavy careers…two became accountants, a few more ended up in finance/banking, and another ended up working her way up to being the head nurse of a regional hospital in the NE after graduating with a nursing degree from an elite US college on a private foundational scholarship.

On the flipside, one will be expected to take more math courses if one goes on the natural/technical sciences track in an academic prep high school or some higher vocational high schools where math/science knowledge is required such as becoming mechanics or technicians. The relatives on the natural/technical sciences track went into engineering/tech.

607

In our well ranked suburban school district Band/Choir/Theater/Sports/Debate/Olympiad all take a class period. In a 7 period day after science, math, English, social studies and foreign language and fine arts you are left with 1 elective. It is singularly the most aggravating thing about this school. God forbid you are an AP capable student who also is an athlete and instrumentalist/singer. The only UIL varsity sport that does not require a “class” period is cross country and track.

If you want to be in band and debate you would never be able to participate in a sport. Varsity sport and olympiad sorry no band or choir or theater . You may not audition for a school play or musical unless you are in choir or theater class, want to be a cheerleader or on a varsity sport fine but if you also want to add AP Euro or AP Psych you can’t be in band or choir there is not enough room in the schedule. Both of my kids have given up an something to continue in a sport or EC. D16 gave up soccer as a sophomore to continue in band, D18 dropped band as a freshman to continue in advanced theater and cheerleading after having earned a spot in the region band as a flute player. This year theater had to drop to take honors Latin 2. D16 managed to fit in a varsity sport by doing a “club” lacrosse team that is authorized by the school district to distribute varsity letters because lacrosse is not a developed/recognized UIL sport in Texas.

Just checked our curriculum guide the mandatory sequence in math is Algebra, Geometry, Algebra II, Precalc and AP Calc AB. The only way you can get to AP Calc BC is to take one of the pre-calculus maths over the summer (only there is no honors math offered over the summer and summer classes will not count toward your GPA). D16 only knows 1 kid taking a math above AP Calc BC and he does it as an independent study. So essentially everybody is “tracked” or “capped” because the school district makes it darn near impossible to get past AP Calc BC. They are also essentially capping the number of APs (and EC for that matter) by making many of the EC a class period. D16 will graduate with 11 AP’s but she definitely had to give up somethings to get them in her schedule.

608

@waitingtoexhale deviant not meant AT ALL to sound mean and nasty… ! Meant as in “deviant from the norm”. We get all the time that bc people think if you can do really well in school, you must be gifted and not of normal intellect. BC the norm is just coasting along in school not challenging yourself. My son tries and enjoys learning so many people think he is some prodigy but he didn’t even make GT in middle school IQ tests. I was just trying to illustrate that he wasn’t superior, rather its his attitude and interests that drive him.

Its frustrating for us that the school won’t encourage this, but they will encourage anything sports success related.

609

@rhandco I take the comments about kids not being geniuses but just hard workers as humility and/or realism, not meant to offend those who are naturally brilliant nor imply geniuses are lazy. I would say the same thing about my daughter. Smart but no genius with a great work ethic. If a kid is a genius and hard working, that’s terrific.

As I’ve said before, I’m glad we are not in the same school district as TheGFG. We did have some frustrations-daughter ran out of classes to take senior year due to a lack of offerings, so we found an online class that she ended up really enjoying. It would not fly to ask the district to pay for anything beyond what the school offers. It is rare that a kid from our school gets into an Ivy, but they do get into very good schools.

I would never advocate holding a kid back and I would not make any judgement as far as how they got to that point. That’s the family’s business. And it would have been nice to not have to pay out of my own pocket for my daughter to take a course that, frankly, is commonplace at better school districts. It is the districts business if the environment is not healthy from a mental health perspective. As a community, we should all be concerned with that.

610

“From birth, parents can and should be helping kids feel their best about running their own races with grace and humility, learning as much as they can, and aiming to do right in the world. Tell your children: It’s not your business what any other child or family is doing, but you can wish them well. You are not in competition for some grand life prize. If you have the wonderful opportunities to expand your knowledge thanks to a great school district, drink up all the knowledge you can and be respectful to your teachers. Learn from everyone you encounter, and realize that what you get out of an education is what you put into it. If your friends seem stressed out, show them that they can get unconditional love and support from you and even from our family if needed. There are hundreds of truly top-notch colleges, and thousands of truly top-notch careers, and it’s not a zero-sum game, because “top-notch” means the best match for you personally. People who try to tell you that education is a zero-sum game can be left to their own anxieties, because you don’t have to believe that, and it’s not true in the end”

Awesome post, fretfulmother.

611

Rhandco, I agree some kids are brilliant and don’t need to work hard to earn 99%, and some kids work extremely hard to only earn 88.9%. Of course, a student who studies hard doesn’t always deserve to win, just like an athlete who trains really hard doesn’t always finish first and an employee who works really hard doesn’t get promoted. But the corollary is also true: sometimes natural talent doesn’t deserve to win. A genius student who doesn’t do homework and turn it in on time doesn’t deserve an A, even if his IQ is known to be high. As an example, I’m thinking of the kid who is identified as a prodigy at a very young age but who winds up working middle management as an adult (or working minimum wage like non-geniuses). For every genius who finds fame and fortune, there are others who live ordinary lives that are indistinguishable from the non-geniuses.

Mensa estimates geniuses make up 1% of population. The rest of us, 99%, are just ordinary - or within a range of what is considered ordinary. Even if you assume College Confidential has a higher representation of genius kids, say like quadruple, 4%, that still leaves 96% of the kids represented here in the category of not genius.

Frankly, I think the children of most of the posters to CC (mine included), are kids who are given extraordinary resources/wherewithal and encouragement to work hard and to pursue academic opportunities – resources and encouragement that are not evenly distributed across socio-economic strata. For the millions of kids who are not natural geniuses (and a few of the unlucky geniuses who are born into poverty), breaking through will depend on applying hard work and maximizing resources and opportunities. I tell my kids all the time that they should operate on the assumption that all their peers are at least just as smart as they are. In life, it’s NOT what you were given, but what you do with your gift, that makes the difference. Pluck and luck, for sure.

Rhandco, I don’t know if you meant to conjure race in your comment about the hardworking stereotype versus the natural talent stereotype. I think the white, black, Asian and Latino geniuses who comprise 1% of their respective populations, have to apply themselves and their gift to succeed in life. Likewise, I think the 99% of the nongeniuses, whether they are white, black, Asian or Latino, have to work hard to stand out from the crowd.

612

I am surprised people are taking offense to the comments about a kid who “works hard”. Sure many (probably most) of these kids get remarkable opportunities but oftentimes their peers who have similar opportunities/resources do little but watch TV and play video games or focus only on sports.

613

@Pizzagirl - thank you! :slight_smile:

614

@yearstogo My kids spend a surprising amount of time playing video games and watching TV (well- Netflix). They aren’t curing cancer and they are not aiming for Ivies. I’m okay with it as long as their grades stay up and their rooms stay clean (mostly). We have never been over schedulers and we’re cool with that. I spend a lot of my free time on CC so I can’t judge.

615

@runswimyoga : Thanks for the clarification, I appreciate it.

“BC the norm is just coasting along in school not challenging yourself:”

I see that this is the idea of what normative is, but I have to say, I still can’t see that as the norm. I see that more as the kids in Mr. Kotter’s class. The norm is doing what is asked of you, doing it to the best of your ability, turning in your work, studying for the tests and taking home the strongest report card to your parents that shows the effort and payoff of your work.

@labegg: The scheduling conflicts, and therefore prohibitive aspects, of the courses and ECs at your school do indeed sound frustrating. My two oldest kids would be made rather miserable by them.

@cobrat: “They had no issues with and even tried encouraging me to read English/American poems they themselves enjoyed. They were quite disappointed when I not only failed to bite, but bolted at 11.”

:slight_smile:

616

@yearstogo -

Be careful, the use of the words "work hard’ is considered a micro aggression because it perpetuates the myth of the meritocracy.

UC System:

http://ucop.edu/academic-personnel-programs//_files/seminars/Tool_Interrupt_Microaggressions.pdf

University of Wisconsin Stevens-Point:

http://issuu.com/thecollegefix/docs/nfsracialmicroaggressions_table

University of Missouri:

https://diversity.missouri.edu/summit/session-mats/can_we_talk-microaggressions_in_everyday_life-handout.pdf

Everyone else:

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/02/ways-racial-microaggressions-sneak-in/

617

I think it should be about learning not competition or working hard. Competition and the constant drive to work work work is what stresses a lot of kids out. Schools and colleges are looking for learners and kids that will make a difference. I have told my kids in college to take the classes they will ultimately learn the most from and not worry about the grades. That philosophy has worked extremely well for them. Sometimes you have to work hard and sometimes you don’t. I tell my kids to not worry what the other students are doing but concentrate on what they can get out of the class for themselves.

618

a kid comes home and says that all the smart kids are taking this extra math class and I want to as well because otherwise I’ll never achieve my goal to be in the top 5% because I won’t be able to be in BC calc in 1th grade. Mom says no, that class is too much on top of all your other commitments and we don’t want you stressed and you will do perfectly fine in life if you aren’t a top student. Run your own race! Don’t follow others. You don’t need to go to Princeton. Kid says this is my race, my dream is to be the straight A student and go to a super-elite college, even though I know you will love me even if I go to Big State U.

But mom knows the kid is already stretched thin with all top classes, demanding ECs (all selected buy the kid) and thinks it really could be too much. Does the parent say no, knowing this will put the kid at a disadvantage and reduce her chances at an elite and thus have the kid upset that her the parent doesn’t believe she is as capable as the other top Students? Does parent say yes, knowing it means more time in a classroom and at the homework desk and more stress - and the kid is already showing signs of stress? Wouldn’t it be better for all if this doesn’t become the norm?

How can you think that a school culture that requires more all the time could never be toxic? How can you believe that all kids can or want to opt out, even with parental support and urging? Isn’t the job of the schools to educate the whole child, not just prepare them for college? And wouldn’t that include supporting a healthy, balanced life? As someone said up thread, this debate is not about depriving gifted kids of the opportunity to soar, it is trying to keep them from flying too close to the sun and burning up.

619

Part of me seriously feels bad for these kids. But another part of me also says, “of course this happens in New Jersey”.

620

@LBad96 It happens where there is affluence, which is not limited to New Jersey. I see it in upstate New York. You can find it in the Midwest (even though PizzaGirl routinely tells us folks there don’t give a darn about the Ivies). And I’m sure you can find it in the South, too.

@mom2and It is absolutely the job of the school to teach the whole child in a healthy environment conducive to learning. But, in your example, it isn’t up to the school to step in and make the decision for the family how Suzy spends her time outside of school. The parent can be a parent, and tell the child they have to drop something to fit in an extra class. If there are consequences in school (child starts to do poorly in a class, falls asleep during the day, expresses the stress is too much), then a teacher or counselor can discuss with the family. But, to impose a limit on a how a student spends their free time is intrusive. And maybe Suzy is a superstar and can do it.

What I absolutely object to is teaching an AP class in a way that necessitates the extra class outside of school. If that is the reason for the extra class in your story, then there needs to be a policy shift.