Reforms to Ease Students’ Stress Divide a New Jersey School District

Parents Forum
741

Student-designed experiments should be approved by the teacher before the lab. But there is never any reason for a prelab exam to be time-pressured. I’m all for lab safety, but usually there is a limited number of potentially hazardous materials or steps which can easily be reviewed and highlighted. I wouldn’t want to assume that a kid who got a score on a written exam taken on another day would necessarily remember how to handle the acid, which chemicals not to mix, or which tongs to use with the hot glassware when the time comes. They should be told when the lab is done.

@fretfulmother, have you ever taught a lab class?

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@mathyone many times per day for two decades :slight_smile: have I taught lab classes. However, I have not taught as advanced biology classes as I believe are being discussed. So I suppose there could be differences along those lines that I’m missing.

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Thanks everyone for the explanations. I can now understand why there would be a need for a pre-test whether the issue is one of safety or of wasting chemicals. even when chemicals are inexpensive, it can be a pain in the neck to run out. I can even understand why there might be a timed test.

If my child were involved, however, I would want them to have the option of taking the test a few days before the lab, and re-taking without penalty if they failed the first time around. I might also want them to “warm up” by first using techniques on less expensive materials, regardless of whether they had passed a virtual test.

And, no matter how many times a student has passed a test, I would like to be assured that any time there are dangerous chemicals involved, that supervision will be in place.

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@frazzled2thecore you are totally correct about the run through idea. In my (non AP) class, we do exactly that, like titrating vinegar before we step to a stronger acid.

@austinmshauri thank you for the clarification and apology, I appreciate it, and I also appreciate your more in-depth explanation of your daughter’s struggles.

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Thanks austinmshauri. D also has some disabilities, so setbacks and failures are a fact of life. I don’t, however, expect her to be publicly shamed for being too slow on a computerized quiz. She has worked extremely hard her whole life and does not deserve this treatment from a teacher who is perfectly aware of her background and that she has delayed processing.

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@TheGFG I’m on your side about this: if your daughter’s IEP wasn’t followed for her extended time, that is a very serious problem.

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I wanted to add: of course adequate supervision is required in labs! Yes, definitely. And smart set up. But in a class of 25 kids, I have to do lots of preventative prep also. That can include many kinds of prelab and assessments, and I was just allowing also for the other kinds described though I don’t use them.

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@fretfulmother - Do you ever think that a timed test would be appropriate prior to entering a lab or beginning an experiment? (How accommodations might be put in place for a student on iep with limited manual dexterity or slowed processing time who is nonetheless able to understand how to set up a lab and interpret results might be another issue.)

It just seems to me that reaction times could be very important in some lab contexts, whether to ensure safety or minimize waste of materials in short supply.

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@frazzled2thecore - I think reaction time could be important, certainly in, for example, medical school as training for being a doctor. Or as you say, to ensure safety and minimize waste. I agree that it could be a tricky thing to figure out, how to accommodate someone with slower processing.

It’s not always clear how kids will be affected by a disability. One of my preps is a very low level introductory science course that includes many kids with learning challenges. We do some experiments with stop-watches (no one could possibly get injured unless they try to swallow the thing :wink: ) and it’s interesting that a student’s processing delay is not always correlated to a reaction time delay (which we see indirectly in lab as a side effect of the timing). And some disabilities like distractibility are actually positives if you’re supposed to be alert to any changes in materials.

I just don’t know the answer to your question (“is a timed test ever appropriate prior to the lab”) because I don’t have extensive enough experience. I imagine that there are teachers who believe that it is, and I would want to hear their perspectives.

When I do pre-labs, it’s a homework grade and the kids know in advance and it is open-notebook (and sometimes done as a lab group as a model for the real world and how science is actually done, but not always that way, because another responsibility of mine is the individual assessment of kids’ performance). Often the first pre-lab of the year has pretty dismal grade results, because kids don’t take it seriously or prepare. For that reason, I know to make sure that the first lab is not something that would cause catastrophic effects if kids did it cold. In my advanced classes, the worry of another poor homework grade universally means much better preparation for all subsequent labs. In my remedial classes, I never rely on student preparation at that level, and present things until everyone can recite safety instructions in their sleep… Hard-working students who take good notes but might not do so well on tests, know that the pre-labs are a chance to boost their averages.

One of the things I thought was on a lighter note is that I was going over safety with Bunsen burners for the nth time and said, “remember to use all your senses, listening if it’s on; smelling if there’s gas, looking at the hose for bends or cracks…” and one kid said, “But not your sense of taste!” I was glad he had been listening…

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I have come late to this thread, since I don’t check cc all that often any more. Also I apologize in that I have not yet read all 50 pages of comments, but the topic is one that I feel strongly about.

I think that the educational system in the many “highly competitive” districts fails the students in many many ways. The system as it currently is configured with achieving high test scores on as many tests and high level courses as possible in HS in order to be admitted to the “most” prestigious college possible is not a proper educational experience. I think that the experience creates uber competitive people who may end up ethically challenged, burned out, and cheated of the experience to actually learn about themselves and what they would like to do in the world.

Testing should not be used to identify the “gifted”. Testing should identify those who can not read or do math and be used to help them. Teachers should be able to identify bright students who need more stimulus, and schools should provide it. Students should learn up to the ability they have and their desire to learn - not their parents desire to pressure them to go to HYP. Students who want to learn should never be excluded from a course unless they are failing or discipline problems. Schools should expose students to music, art, and history that is not tested on APUSH. Which is aptly named- a great deal of push is in there. Maybe Mrs. Yin and the other “tiger” parents out there should find out what their kids really want to learn or read and handle it themselves. No one is saying you can’t read a book or paint a picture or learn the electric guitar on the “no homework” nights. If a kid loves math, let him learn - everything doesn’t have to be a course. To me the attitude is that of jumping through hoops to show how high one can jump. An exercise that can be mastered, but not an education.

When I was in 7th and 8th grade I took the “regular” music class, because the other classes were chorus classes, and although I love to sing, I did not want to be part of the chorus. Music was required (and band or orchestra did not count - you had to come early to school for those. ) The regular class was usually for behavior problem kids who could not be in chorus, and the tone deaf with a couple of exceptions, myself included. We learned so much about so many forms of music including classical music. For a birthday present I asked my parents to buy me a recording of the 1812 overture. You can not include this on your resume. This type of experience is what adds to your quality of life. If your public school has done this for your kid, then write its name up here so we can know where there are still schools that educate for something other than high test scores.

I can understand wanting to provide a better future for your kids. My own dad dropped out of HS during the depression to help support his family. We didn’t have much money and were worse off than most of our neighbors. Dad was a great guy but not much at earning a lot. One of the things I did not like about my own high school was that I felt that you really did not get the opportunity to learn as much as you might have wanted or been able to learn. For this reason, I have never liked public schools since then. There were some great teachers, and from them I think I got a pretty good mastery of what was needed to do average work at my college. The school was not bad, however, I could have done more in HS. I don’t think of it as I could have done more to beat out other people or have gone to HYP. I could have done more to have a better education - more reading, more study of history, more study of math. There just was not an offer of more.

Today, some better schools (imo) offer Shakespeare or finance or creative writing and other things off the AP list. Yet this can not be valued by those on the HYP or bust trajectory. In my own opinion, the type of education where student take class over summers to beat others out and be the “best” limits creativity and often leads to burn out and depression. The burnout may occur in HS or later in college or even after that. In college the pressure on pre professional graduate school exams has become a repeat of the HS testing. Your doctor or lawyer may have had a fabulous MCAT or LSAT, but are they really going to be people who can solve difficult problems?

Ok enough on this rant. Thank you for your time.

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LOL. Who reading this has not had this experience, personally or with their children? Even when the pairing isn’t random and the partner is a so-called high scoring student who would no doubt pass the pre-lab quiz, I’ve watched this phenomenon play out. If the lab gets completed and the lab report gets done as expected, the burden falls on the more diligent kid. Work ethic is as important as ability and I don’t think the pre-test screens for that.

I like @austinmshauri’s suggestion on how to deal with that; I think that is the approach at some schools.

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fretfulmother talks about processing time. In math there is slow math and fast math .The HS kids at the USAMO practice fast math. Andrew Wiles practiced slow math. He worked in his attic for seven years solving Fermats last theorem

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@frazzled2thecore, What kind of situations are you expecting that would require a timed reaction test prior to allowing students to participate in a high school lab experiment? And what are you going to do about the kids who don’t make the cut? Many, if not most, schools require that students participate in lab science to graduate. Certainly colleges expect to see lab sciences on student transcripts.

Processing time and reaction time are two different things. The kind of processing issues dyslexics have isn’t physical. In fact, many are good athletes with great reaction times, so kids like my daughter would probably do well in such a test, but what happens to the straight A klutz who fails the reaction time test? Improving coordination takes time, effort, and money. That straight A student isn’t likely to develop it in time to complete that week’s lab. The purpose of this school’s policy, again, isn’t for safety. It’s to save money. Limiting children’s ability to learn because a district can’t be bothered to account for waste is disgraceful.

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I wasn’t thinking of specific experiments, but it seems to me that sometimes it might be necessary to make quick decisions, based on knowledge and understanding, once an experiment is underway, and that is why I asked about this. And, yes, you are right, reaction time is not the same as processing time.

I don’t know about other districts, but in our district a straight A student lacking the coordination or reaction time physically necessary to complete a lab would probably be on an iep and get assistance rather than extra time, whether an AP student or on a lower track. Or, they would work with a lab partner who had better coordination and take over another part of the lab.

At the college level, my kids have taken lab classes that needed to be completed within a specified amount of time, and others that required many more hours of work than allotted in the space of time on the schedule, with students staying late or returning later in the week to complete the labs. They have sometimes needed to take quizzes before starting labs, but I think that the quiz grade was mainly intended to prod them to prepare for the lab, not to prevent them from going ahead with instructions. Any safety tests they were required to pass before working in a lab were taken only once, as far as I know.

I am not sure why this is not being handled as an iep issue at @TheGFG 's school if the iep specifies extra time on tests, or why students are not given a chance to take the test starting within a few days before beginning the lab to allow for necessary re-takes, if this would be enough to get them up to speed and avoid wasting time by missing labs. It is also not clear to me whether this is the case for all labs, some labs, or only AP labs, or whether the district has shown that passing a test within a specific time frame will lead to better lab performance than taking an untimed test.

I could be wrong, but I think that @TheGFG once mentioned that her D2 could not retain her iep and still take AP level classes at this public school. I do not know how parents in an affluent district would allow this to happen, if this is the case - even from WWP’s handbook, linked several pages ago, it appears that there are students on iep at all levels at WWP.

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There were a couple of new developments today on the lab situation. First, the science supervisor backed off the claim the pre-lab quizzes were to prevent waste of chemicals. They were instituted to ensure accountability and preparing for the labs. However, no answers were provided to my question of what to do with students who were indeed reading the lab information and preparing but still missed too many questions. Several more students failed today and were made to sit out, and they had prepared. Two of them are D’s friends. Also, to add another layer of hell, if the kids can’t make up all their labs on the one time slot offered this week (eg. due to having missed more than one lab), then their labs will be docked for lateness. Worse, today’s lab is a two day lab, so the kids that failed the quiz today are pretty much guaranteed to not be able to catch up in the one slot. Just lovely.

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What did she say about the violation of your D’s IEP?? ETA: It has bothered me all day, because I was filling out 3-year reviews today for my own students.

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GFG is there not an option to somehow call a truce on this … or just get someone to help your daughter pass the dang lab quiz. It is not rocket science, or are they building rockets in chem lab ?

Get your daughter to study the material and stop discussing fair-vs-unfair …at home or at school.

If you lock in a position, you will get gobble-de-gook out of the teachers you are picking on.

My guess is the pre-lab drama will end in exactly one more week … more tiger parents complaining … teacher and science supervisor will back down.

If this is really an IEP issue … I dunno how I stand on that. If we need to give extra time to AP class students … how does that affect the other 16 students … and is that fair ? How about the slightly less brilliant but not disabled child, should they have the AP spot ? Is this the best placement … honestly, with all the issues you present just here

I don’t think so …

Similarly, my student does not want / need less homework because your kid wants to play a sport 2-3 hours a night plus weekends.

GFG may just not be a great poster child for the issues in some NJ schools …

Re placement in 4th grade or 6th grade …

Only way that it is possible for every kid who needs acceleration to get it is to have enough spots and enough qualified teachers, in math and also in teaching of gifted children, to allow both the prepped and the promising but not prepped kids to enter … and maybe even a few parent suggested students. At that point, if the student cannot succeed at this level, the option is to step down a level, which fortunately should be easy … and not shameful.

I can elaborate … but I won’t.

Testing is a reasonable tool and is one way to remove any teacher biases from the selection process. If a student tests well, they should be allowed to take the class, just like the kids who has been shouting out the answers to in-class work for 2 years or the one whose eyes light up in class. Math ability does not correlate that well to either tests or class performance or class engagement or introvert vs extrovert.

Teachers that are dealing with or selecting students for GT type placements also need training in how to spot GT students AND maybe germane to all the talk about hours of busy work … .how to really enrich a program so it serves GT students (and the older AP crowd). Do we give them 3 essays a week, or teach them to write a good essay through concept development, pre-writing, drafts, editing, research …

Do we want our kids to get a 5 on the AP test or learn how to write ? What counts more, the AP test or the college essay (and a good essay from a kid that is really engaged in something and can write well … could be powerful).

Do we want kids to get a 5 on AP Calc BC in 8th grade, or do we want to build a mathematician ?

Some of the busy-work and time issues are related to the overemphasis on tests that is taking over education, the no-child-left-behind = no-child-not-tested-on-material-that-has-been-stuffed-into-them-for-9-months philosophy.

Good assignments for GT students may take time . but they are engaging.

I am somehow really confused by talk that fairness somehow involves people not being able to hire tutors or take summer classes or take MIT openware courses (and if MIT is OK, so is summer school) or heck buying a chemistry for dummies book.

Honestly, the world is full of people of all ilks, some work hard, some hire tutors, some are just gifted in some skill set, some just have a high tolerance for rote learning …

some are recruit-able athletes … I bet there was a lot of money and time and even school money invested there too …

Do we have to lower everyone’s challenges so no one feels stressed out ?

Does Stanford limit difficulty of their students classes ? Do people feel bad about getting a B or C because their fellow students spent all night in the library or hired a tutor or took the class in HS …

Should your child have to kick the ball to the sidelines so my child feels like they belong on varsity soccer ?

Will your employer not stress you out or point out that your colleague is doing better work ? Is this process always fair ?

Fairness is a dangerous concept to use as a barometer for whether a school is doing its job or for life in general.

Resilience is an important skill - and even related to the lab quiz - so is getting up the nerve to ask the teacher to let you take the quiz again …

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Pickone YES it is fair to give more time to students that need it. It is not a speed test. This is a chem lab not the Indy 500. Stanford gives lots and lots of help to the students that need it. HS should be about learning and being collaborative not the kid with the most money to buy the most tutors wins. I admire GFG for fighting the battle and I feel bad their family has to go through these layers of hell

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I have just been trying to interpret to readers the stressful situation in my school, which in a number of ways mirrors the district in the OP. I never said D2 was the poster child for anything, and she is certainly not gifted. For the record, she is not loaded up on AP’s (only 3) and is only involved in one EC. She has never been coddled or spared from failure. Ever. If I had wanted coddling for her, she’d be in life skills classes right now like those kids with whom she started her educational journey in elementary school special ed. You really have no idea. And please, like no one thought of studying! Or asking to take the test again!

I also have two very bright older children with no disabilities, and have mostly spoken about their experiences.

I don’t know how your schools compare as far as EC involvement, but here all top students are in multiple EC’s. (Are we going to pretend now that that’s not necessary for college admission and overburdened students can just opt out?) Some of these activities are pretty time-consuming, plus kids engage in more than one of them (like 6 or so), so the total time commitment adds up to what others spend on athletics alone. Our marching band practices almost as much as a sports team, for example, and they even get varsity jackets. So singling out sports may suit some personal bias, but not engaging in athletics would not solve the problem in WWP or in my district.

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Signing off. I have said everything there is to say.