D2 struggles with math, so she is just taking regular calculus now. It is a level below the college calculus course, and two and three levels below AP Calc AB or BC. The course description sounded to me like the math equivalent of “Chemistry in the Community” and that was exactly what I wanted for her. However, DH (engineer) reports that her math homework is surprisingly difficult and time-consuming. Both DH and DS (Ivy grad, econ major) have helped her at times, and say her daily homework assignments took THEM 4+ hours to complete. Both of them also sheepishly admit they were unable to solve a few of the problems. Obviously, this means D will need even longer than they did to complete it. I wish I could give more information for those of you who know math, but I can’t and DH is away on business. He did tell me last week that she would be doing some multivariable stuff next chapter. I don’t know if that is normal or not for the advertised level, but I kind of doubt it.
So I think our classes are just really hard, and WWP is the same way.
I don’t even understand what a calculus class would be that is three levels below AP Calc AB, that would still teach calculus. What is an example of a problem in the homework?
And I don’t understand why someone for whom math is not a strength would be studying calculus rather than something more useful for them, such as statistics. That’s not a criticism of you, TheGFG, but of the school, which seems to be offering a class that is right for nobody.
She took Honors Algebra in 7th, Honors Geometry in 8th. Then due to a B instead of an A, she dropped down to regular Algebra II instead of Honors Algebra II. That meant she had to proceed to regular, not Honors Pre-Calc. The next course in the track was Calculus I. If she takes math next year, she can take AP Stat (it’s only open to seniors).
I have been avoiding this thread, but just this week I was faced with how out of hand the whole college dash is. My elder went to the local prep school because she really needs the challenge, and it served her well. Her sister went because what one does for one child, one does for the other. . . I guess. DD#2 is not a math prodigy, smart enough, but very mellow and a bit dreamy. I just found out that she is doing trig as part of her 9th grade geometry. It is needed for her physics class. No wonder her math homework takes so long. . . and interfers with fun things like piano and leisure reading. Now this school is not as intense as GFG’s school, but it is significantly more than I anticipated, even after having one child through it.
Our local public just doesn’t offer enough challenge, but the next step up is full throttle ahead. Given the global economy, I believe full throttle is better, but what happened to contemplative or playful childhood?
Unfortunately, the message to repeat already-learned material for a supposedly-easy A seems to be quite common. It is fairly common on these forums for posters to recommend that an engineering frosh with a 5 on the AP calculus BC exam unconditionally repeat his/her calculus by retaking calculus 1 and 2 (rather than checking the college’s old final exams for those courses to see if s/he knows the material well enough to skip them). Also, the need for pre-meds to get a very high GPA creates an incentive for pre-meds to repeat their AP credit for a supposedly-easy A instead of substituting more advanced courses in those subjects to satisfy pre-med requirements. Taking a beginner foreign language course when one already has higher than beginner knowledge is apparently common enough that some colleges’ course catalogs state in the course descriptions that heritage speakers and/or other non-beginners should not take the beginner courses.
@CardinalFang, "Since you’re math, mathyone, you’ll realize that your little snowflakes will be in the hated “regular history” and “regular English” with all the other little snowflakes that now aren’t allowed in AP History. "
So you’re suggesting that schools not teach AP classes because some students can’t handle them? The AP Psych teacher has told me that some of the students struggle in that class. Should we also remove that from the offerings because it’s too hard for some of the kids? Where does this stop? If kids can’t handle AP psych, well known to be one of the easiest APs, we probably have to get rid of all the APs.
Sadly, it is the parents of the honor students who are often the biggest obstruction to getting anything resembling an appropriate education for gifted students. They’re usually pretty snide about it too.
“And that class can be equally interesting as AP History, even if it doesn’t have two hours of homework each and every night. I fail to understand why a non-AP class, taught by the same teacher as the AP class, and with the same students as the AP class, but with less homework and less busywork, is intrinsically boring.” First of all it wouldn’t be “the same students as the AP class”. Check your math. Our high school is pretty good but most of the students are not AP students. The class you envision would be just like middle school where the readings and level of instruction would be low, the main focus would be on getting the lowest quarter of the class to pass the basic state proficiency exam, and many of the students would be disengaged. Can’t imagine why you think that would be a good class.
Seems like she is reasonably good at math, to have gotten to calculus while in high school. Normal college prep math level completes precalculus in 12th grade.
803
Two grade levels ahead in math? Was she inappropriately accelerated?
back to #801
Why are there so many levels of calculus in the high school? When I was in high school, there was only one level of calculus (BC) that students who completed precalculus in 11th grade or earlier took. BC is supposed to be equivalent to a college calculus 1 and 2 sequence for math and engineering majors (at most colleges, not Caltech or Harvey Mudd type of schools).
Since AB (covering what college calculus 1 covers plus maybe some of calculus 2) is a slower paced version of BC, it seems like any high school calculus course less rigorous than AB should be a lightweight introduction to calculus, perhaps like a calculus-for-business-majors course in college. If it has monstrous amounts of very difficult homework (for those who have engineering or quantitative economics degrees), then it seems that this is another work/difficulty for work/difficulty sake course.
If your school didn’t allow students to take a zillion APs, then the students who could no longer take the zillion APs, but who previously had taken a zillion APs, would be in non-AP classes with your child, mathyone. If your school system is so terrible, so weak, so impoverished, that the choices are a 12th AP, or a middle school level class, then your school system needs to create some classes in the middle. Thousands of other high school systems in the US manage to find a class level in between a class that is insultingly easy and a class that has two hours of homework each and every night. Your school system can do it too.
In lieu of senior year AP English ,since he had already done the reading list, one of my sons took a basic level (not honors) creative writing course, taught by an excellent teacher. As far as I could tell the students worked at their own pace and at their own level. They all loved it and benefited. My son was not bored. He enjoyed getting to study with a different group of classmates than he usually encountered in class. Another class he took that term was at the local ivy, in his area of obsession, (not science/math) and included graduate students. He was probably the top student in both classes. The prof wrote a glowing, and unsolicited, letter of recommendation saying as much. Sorry for brag. Just trying to establish my credentials when we start arguing about gifted and accelerated and so on. That kid went on to get a PhD in area of obsession. I’m pretty sure he still thinks about it 16 hours a day. However, he doesn’t necessarily talk about it 16 hours a day any longer.
Content matters. What we name a course may have no relation to content. imho
Some of the reasons behind repeating could be answered by alh’s post here:
AP course quality in terms of coverage and/or students within can vary greatly…even if the student scored a 5 on the AP exam.
One case I personally know of is one older college classmate who ended up needing some crash tutoring in college level US History from yours truly despite scoring a 5 on APUSH at a respectable East coast private independent school because his knowledge gaps were such they were having a serious negative impact on core courses in a related major which assumed knowledge from the college’s intro US History classes. Classes which he skipped on the assumption that his AP score and what he learned in his private independent school’s APUSH was enough.
On the flipside, while I was never allowed to take APs in my public magnet, the college’s US history class was effectively a repeat of the non-AP US history class I took in HS*. Took it because it was required not only for Gen Eds, but also for my major and one of my minors.
Teacher I had was also one of the teachers teaching APUSH at my HS and was known for giving heavy workloads in both her AP and non-AP classes, grading harshly, being blunt in her critiques, and requiring long paper/research essay assignments. She's one of several HS teachers who structured classes/assignments in such a manner that when I was in undergrad, I ended up being puzzled at how many college classmates felt a 5-10 page essay assignment was considered "long" and "too hard".
Seems like this is at least partially the fault of the college, if it allowed skipping the US history course with an AP US history score of 5 even though a student who did score a 5 is not fully prepared for more advanced courses that call for that US history course as a prerequisite. Since the AP syllabi are standardized, college should be able to evaluate them and offer subject credit or advanced placement only in cases where the AP syllabi adequately cover the material the courses to be skipped.
What we are seeing in the last few pages is that there can be a lot of variation from high school to high school in how the same AP course is administered. We know that at some schools, the advanced kids can take AP Bio and AP Chem without first taking Bio 1 or Chem 1. Contrast that to my high school, which requires a difficult Honors Bio/Chem course first and where many of those honors Bio and Chem students go on to take an additional 120 hours of instruction in “pre-AP” over the summer to “ease their transition” into the AP class. One school’s AP lab science class meets 4 hrs. per week, and another school’s course meets 8 hours per week. It is impossible for those two classes to cover the same amount of material unless class time is being wasted. NY state requires a minimum of 15 labs per year and a friend’s AP bio class adds a few more to that, whereas D’s class is doing those 15 labs in just the first 2 months. At one of the local Catholic schools, students are permitted to take an AP for only half the year, and yet still get a weighted grade for the first half. A friend’s D took APUSH for the first semester, found it too difficult, and then stopped. Dropping out when the going gets tough would never be allowed at most CCer’s schools, I think.
So when kids/parents say they don’t have much HW for AP’s and can’t understand what the fuss at WWP and other districts is about, I think this explains some of it. When I say we have tons of homework, it should be remembered that we meet for almost twice as many class hours for the same AP as do other schools.
TheGFG, if it is taking an engineer 4 hours to do the math homework for a regular Calculus class, my first guess would be that he is trying to obtain the answers from first principles, while the teacher expects the students to apply a result given in class. This is probably not your daughter’s actual problem, but QMP was taking a long time with the calc homework one day, while trying to differentiate various functions starting from the definition of a derivative as a limit, rather than using results from the class–which speeded it up quite a lot.
I’m confused by the idea that someone who was in an accelerated calculus class could not also be in an accelerated history class. I am truly unfamiliar with the AP format but in IB standard level math covers Calculus AB. So my son is taking the equivalent of AP Calculus while taking higher level history (and doing quite well in both.) None of this is an either less or more recipe. The IB curriculum would be completely wrong for a lot of students. Unnecessary AP loading sounds like it would be equally wrong for many students. And GFC’s district just sounds wrong on so many levels. But accelerated programs can in fact be completely appropriate for many students when done correctly. That’s not a dismissal on the content of a lower level course. It is simply a statement that ALL children should have access to courses appropriate to their ability.
I, of course, say that as someone who has no secret society of cram schools or summer classes casting a shadow on our program. Our kids have summer work and quite a lot of homework. But none of my son’s friends feel overburdened and our program has the highest IB diploma pass rate in the area. It is possible for accelerated to not equaled stressed out burnt out children.
Schools that have gone completely insane should certainly be reigned in. But schools that are working should not be discounted.
You may not know about the secret society. Our local Hindu temple, which serves a number of HS districts, has a Saturday morning “cultural” enrichment program that grew out of a pre-school program. As the kids advanced through elementary school, the morning classes became less cultural and more academic which gave these kids a leg up in elementary through middle school.
The only prereqs for taking AP courses at my public magnet HS was having an A- average or better in the subject/field in question AND an A- or better cumulative HS average.
It wasn’t unusual for classmates to take APs without having taken the non-AP counterpart first. In fact, doing the latter was considered a “waste of time” for many classmates who felt if one was to go AP…to do so across the board as much as the HS academic policies would allow.
The ones who attend schools where AP workloads are on the lighter side…like that older college classmate with the 5 on APUSH may find themselves in for a rude shock when they start undergrad and find they are unprepared for the quantity, rigor, and pacing of the actual college-level courses.
Incidentally, I have a few cousins who attended K-12 in some of the topflight suburban school districts/towns in NJ. One older cousin even went so far as to equate their town’s HS with Stuy* which caused another cousin who attended that same NJ high school and was more familiar with Stuy to laugh in strong disagreement.
Average SATs in that NJ public HS were in the high 1700s** whereas my HS's current average is approaching 2100 and their HS had a much wider variation in academic ability than my HS does....though I did my utmost to widen it much further than HS admins/HS classmates desired. :)
** This is actually comparable to some respectable, but not quite elite East Coast private day/boarding schools several college classmates attended.
" When I say we have tons of homework, it should be remembered that we meet for almost twice as many class hours for the same AP as do other schools. " Not sure how this is possible, unless you are including the summer classes as well. Our AP classes meet the same hours as all our other classes–just under 3.75 hours per week. Our kids have to take the same AP exam at the end of the year as students at your school. So, this means your kids are having to do more homework? I don’t doubt that some teachers at your school are making the kids do homework way above what is expected for the AP exam and what is required to do well. But that’s a separate issue. Merely having more instructional hours in a well-taught class means that the kids need to cover less of the material on their own time.
Despite apparently having half the instructional hours and no secret summer school, we have very high pass rates on our APs, including 100% pass rates on several of the toughest core APs. Something is very wrong if a school requires summer school and double instructional time to get these kinds of results from highly motivated students who come from families that value education.
And how could a school where kids are loading on the APs possibly have “almost twice as many class hours” for those classes? Is your school day several hours longer than usual to accommodate double length AP classes? I think taking 8 classes is harder than taking 6 classes that meet for more minutes during the week.