<p>“It is perfectly legal for Princeton to consider his ethnicity when evaluating his academic transcript”</p>
<p>the argument will be: that Princeton is going beyond that threshold</p>
<p>Citation, the failure to select one qualified candidate over others in a competitive environment is not discrimination. There is absolutely 0 likelihood that anyone ever decided to reject Li because he was Asian; the fact that the only kid accepted to Princeton from his high school was also Asian undermines any such argument. </p>
<p>I am sure that Princeton will have no problem documenting that it accepted many Asians with lower grades and test scores than Li, and that it rejected many non-Asians with higher grades & test scores. </p>
<p>It would be very different if Princeton had explicit policies that set a different bar for admission based on race, but they don’t. It would also be different if it could be shown that there was a pattern of discrimination when all other variables were controlled for… but I doubt that is the case. That is, if you started breaking it all down looking at factors like geographic location of applicants, types of high schools, socioeconomic data, intended major, specific talents, etc. – and there was still an apparent pattern of discrimination, then there might be an issue. But I still think that the fact that the kid is from New Jersey has more to do with it than his ethnic heritage.</p>
<p>Agree to the extent geographic “discrimination” could have been a factor - and geographic discrmination (generally along with legacy and athletic preferences) does not trigger equal protection issues</p>
<p>As a general rule students, located in most areas of the Northeast USA applying to the elite colleges are already at a disadvantage relative to applicants applying from Kansas, Oklahoma, and other underrepresented areas</p>
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<p>Actually, the Supreme Court in the Grutter and Gratz cases pretty much just reaffirmed existing precedent, precedent that dates back to I believe the Bakke case.</p>
<p>This time around, the Court tightened the noose slightly. In striking down the Michigan mechanical points system, the Court essentially barred admissions or scholarship programs that give an automatic preference based solely on race. That’s why Linda Chavez anti-African American legal action outfit has been running around threatening to file legal challenges against schools with summer orientation programs designed to help minority students do better in college, etc. Rehnquist gave Chavez and the anti-African American lobby the road map for this next incremental step in his dissenting opinion.</p>
<p>As a result, there are no longer any scholorships earmarked for African American students. Those scholarships are now unconstitutional.</p>
<p>Midmo, please rethink your statment about your son’s Ethiopian girlfriend. I know that it was meant as honest sarcasm, but it really is too close to that old 1960s joke about whites struggling to accept new “colored” neighbors or acquaintances.</p>
<p>Incidentally, contemporary immigrants from sub-Sahara Africa are not considered “African-American.” That term has a distinct and explict meaning in this country; descendants of enslaved Africans whom were historically repressed and subject to discrimination by law and by custom in THE UNITED STATES. Today colleges are acknowleging this distinction in their admissions considerations.</p>
<p>Fine, dstark, you rejected my premise.</p>
<p>but you didn’t asnwer my challenge. I gather it 's okay for you if URm enrollment goes down in order to change the way Asians are accepted.</p>
<p>You were someone I had in mind when I wrote my post, and frankly, your answer, knowing your usual stance on most issues, surprises me.</p>
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Agree 100%, midmo. I think plopping an unprepared minority kid at Princeton’s doorstep would be demoralizing.</p>
<p>But I disagree that faculty looking for the students who can succeed at the highest level would only limit it to stats, or that any involvement in any EC demonstrates that. I think there is a huge difference in the team mentality & cooperation skills learned on a football team vs. a tennis team. Wasn’t that the point of Title IX? Women were at a huge disadvantage in the business world because they had too few opportunities to learn teamwork? Team sports, especially rugged ones, are believed by many to build character.</p>
<p>dstark, you keep posting the same stats. I think most posters would agree that the numbers are accurate. But you are failing to factor in ECs and other intangibles. </p>
<p>I get annoyed at admissions spots awarded strictly on the basis of race, mainly because I’ve seen too many wealthy, privleged minorities pass over more qualified white kids. Selfishly, I don’t want my own white kids to get unfairly passed by. (Granted, my observations are not up-to-the minute in this area. I did, however, know the full picture on these kids, including SES & ECs.) That is why I originally assumed the anti-Asian perception was true. My own little “survey” shows this perception to be false, IF WE ARE TO BELIEVE (and I do) that holistic review of applications is in place to create classes that are diverse in many, many ways in addition to race.</p>
<p>I think kluge wins the prize for the most succinct way to explain what happened to Mr. Li & other high-stat, accomplished Asian kids:
If I lived in uber-wealthy land & ran in social circles with the Kennedy clan, I wouldn’t be surprised if my kids’ yacht regatta trophies and polo championships looked a bit ho-hum to admissions officers.</p>
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Yeah, but that is only very recently that adjustments have been made. Another flaw in the whole AA race-based system.</p>
<p>Midmo:</p>
<p>Profs at institutions I know of have only a limited role in admissions and in admissions decisions. I know, for example, that some applications get reviewed by profs in certain departments (maybe a science project? someone who won a math medal? someone with an unusual background?). I know that profs in one Ivy Dept tried to get more students admitted into their dept. (but were disappointed); so there is definitely communication between profs and admission. But there are other parties involved, too: coaches, heads of orchestras, development offices, folks involved in the performing arts, deans of residential colleges who want their colleges (or houses) to be vibrant, the folks who run community services, and so on. I would expect that at a place like Chicago, academics matter more than at a place like Harvard; that sports plays more of a role in admission at Williams than at Swarthmore.
And certain admission policies result in more or less happy profs. For example, profs are not happy at having to tailor schedules around athletes’ training, but that happens all the time.</p>
<p>Marite,thank you.</p>
<p>Lakewash: what a crock. People who push AA have noticed that many people do not fit into convenient boxes, so they have redefined the shape of the boxes. Now kids whose PARENTS are from Africa don’t count as African Americans but those whose greatgrandparents were, do count. How many distortions of reality will people accept before they stand back and say, “What a mess! Let’s just fix the problems where they began.” As for the personal jibe, you can can that crap and eat it. I don’t need to cull approval from people on message boards, and my observation was not intended to do that. Interdad implied that all who oppose AA are racists. That is what I object to.</p>
<p>Spell correction: change camoflauge to camouflage. Same concept though. However it comes about, a multi-hued Ivy campus is not a reflection of the non-university world or the non-Ivy university world. It serves some good purposes well, I don’t deny that. When it becomes the over-reaching goal of those who would eliminate a permanent underclass, then I suggest it serves as camouflage of the real problems. </p>
<p>Li’s complaint is that he is a victim of racism. I don’t necessarily believe it. I am hopeful investigation of the formal complaint will enlighten the debate, if not end it.</p>
<p>Interesteddad, are you saying that the study was strictly theoretical and whites are affected as much by AA as Asians in the real world at Princeton admissions?</p>
<p>Garland, I am in favor of affirmative action.</p>
<p>I am really arguing that Li has a right to find out if there is discrimination. There are people arguing that if he knew what we knew, he would never have filed. That’s not a reason to file or not file.</p>
<p>So I am arguing that he has the right to file and find out as much as he can and I am in favor of affirmative action.</p>
<p>Dstark:</p>
<p>I don’t think any poster who has criticized Li or the premises on which he bases his suit is challenging his right to file a suit–which, I gather, is not yet the case.</p>
<p>Most of his critics are, however, suggesting that his complaint is wrong-headed, not that he does not have the right to make it. Though I think it is wrong headed, I also think it may be a good idea for him to pursue it. It may clear the air regarding whether or not Asian-Americans are being disadvantaged in the college admission process.</p>
<p>Marite, OK. The people who are arguing that it is wrong-headed don’t really know. They might think they know. They might be right in the end. But they don’t really know.</p>
<p>“I also think it may be a good idea for him to pursue it. It may clear the air regarding whether or not Asian-Americans are being disadvantaged in the college admission process.”</p>
<p>I agree.</p>
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<p>I agree.</p>
<p>Whether or not it is really true that Asian American applicants are at a disadvantage in comparison to white applicants, the very fact that people believe it to be true is a problem. </p>
<p>My daughter, who is white, goes to a school that has many Asian students. Both the white kids and the Asian kids believe that Asians are at a disadvantage in comparison to whites in the college application process. As far as they are concerned, this is an accepted fact of life. </p>
<p>There is a boy in their class who has an Asian mother and a white father. His name reflects his father’s heritage rather than his mother’s. The kids believe that this boy would be crazy to indicate “Asian” or “biracial” on his college application forms or even to refuse to state his race. They believe that he should say that he is white because they know that he can get away with it. The very fact that they feel that way indicates that there is a problem.</p>
<p>I’d rather put Asian than white if I don’t fit the stereotype of “Asian”</p>
<p>If I did fit the stereotype I’d put white</p>
<p>“I don’t think any poster who has criticized Li or the premises on which he bases his suit is challenging his right to file a suit”</p>
<p>Actually, many posters have challenged his right to file even a complaint, much less a suit. Some don’t like that he is not a citizen, some think he is ungrateful because he was admitted to Yale instead. Furthermore, many have come to the conclusion, based on zero evidence, that he is spoiled, arrogant, racist, one-dimensional, etc. That is why this thread just keeps going on and on. Offended Person rants about the Asian cardboard cut-out, some of us jump in to defend his right to complain, someone else provides anecdotes that reinforces stereotypes, someone else offers up opposing anecdotes. And then it starts to get ugly with accusations of racism, when everyone on this board shares the ultimate goal of a fair society–I think.</p>
<p>I suppose it is a matter of interpretation. I have lots of reservations about both the merits of Mr. Li and the way he comes across in what I’ve read about him. But that is very different from challenging his right–or anyone’s right to bring a suit about anything an individual may want to sue about.</p>
<p>b4nnd20 has a point here. If a kid does stereotypically Asian things, it is better if that kid is not Asian. But if a kid’s interests lie elsewhere, being Asian could possibly be a plus.</p>
<p>There is something sick about the fact that the value of a student’s academic or extracurricular accomplishments changes depending on that student’s race.</p>
<p>My daughter and another student whom she knows, both of whom are All-State musicians, have been nominated for the regional honors band that is one step up from All-State. My daughter has played up this honor on her college applications. I suspect that the other guy won’t. Why? Because she is white and he is Asian. Musical accomplishments somehow don’t “count” as much for Asians because instrumental music is a stereotypically Asian activity.</p>
<p>On the other hand, one of the officers of the Fashion Club at my daughter’s school is Asian. I suspect that she will make a big point of this activity on her college applications simply because it is an un-Asian thing to do. Her non-Asian fellow officers probably won’t make a big deal about their roles in the club because, for them, it’s kind of ordinary.</p>
<p>How did we get into this ridiculous situation?</p>
<p>My biggest problem with Li’s complaint is that he is attacking the wrong thing: affirmative action - and only because he found one study that he believes proves that doing away with affirmative action will improve the situation of Asians. The real problem, if any, is NOT affirmative action but negative action (being compared as a class - to whites - at a higher standard). Negative action does NOT result from affirmative action, and to assume that changes in affirmative action policieswill fix the underlying problem is the major flaw with both the Princeton study and Li’s complaint. Unfortunately, he does not have hard evidence (or even hypothetical evidence like the 80% increase in Asian acceptances that he expects if affirmative action is done away with) to establish negative action and therefore is latching on to whatever he can find that he believes will help Asians even though (as he himself believes) it will harm URMs. </p>
<p>THAT is where Li is wrong-headed (along with the fact that he seems to feel that it is ok to exclude an entire class of people who historically have been discriminated in this country - if it will benefit him/his class). It should not be the URMs that carry the burden of a change in admissions policies. Affirmative action was set in place for a specific reason - to try to correct very real racial disparities. Unfortunately, we have not yet reached a point where we can completely do away with it in all situations, including college admissions. In my mind at least, the benefits of affirmative action still outweigh the costs.</p>
<p>I’m going to answer the call for a professor’s opinion. Although I don’t work at Princeton, I do teach at a respected university - and I teach freshmen, so I see exactly what kind of abilities these kids have right out of high school.</p>
<p>The single most lacking quality of first year students is critical thinking. I have kids who scored in the 700s on their SATs and yet who cannot organize their thoughts or come up with the insight needed to tie together an argument. This inability crosses all racial lines and school backgrounds. The students who tend to get As in my classes pull from a variety of sources and ideas and experiences to form a coherent essay. I love well-rounded kids because they are <em>interesting.</em> They bring another dimension to the classroom. Quite honestly, I don’t care about my students’ test scores; I care about their ability to think for themselves. The essay written for admissions may indicate this, but too many students rely on others to help them craft their essays, making this an unreliable indicator. ECs, on the other hand, can show passion and initiative, two components that are essential for learning critical thinking. Not surprisingly, the students who are actively involved in campus life also tend to want to tackle their academic deficiencies. It’s a thrill every semester to see the leap of thought/insights these ambitious students make.</p>
<p>Despite what some people imply here, there is no racial predictor to classroom performance. I have African-Americans at the top, middle, and bottom of my classes, just as I have Asians and whites with similar distributions. Athletes make up about half of my students this semester - and they, too, occupy the top, middle, and bottom tiers. People who claim that blacks and athletes don’t deserve their spots are completely wrong, just as those who claim that Asians “outperform” other races are also wrong. Students are individuals, and that’s exactly how they are admitted.</p>