<p>^Yeah, my bad. But the principle holds.</p>
<p>hippo, hahahah</p>
<p>But conservatism isn’t a mental illness, right?</p>
<p>This is coming from a militant anti-theist.</p>
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<p>But you could walk in and say, We live in a Multiverse and since we already have this thing called string theory, lets assume there are a infinite amount of strings and all of the strings create a membrane and we can call it M-Theory. Neither of these have any scientific backing, nothing more than science fiction, but they are still considered science.</p>
<p>Ok. I am an “observant” Jew. I abide by the rules of Judaism not because of belief (I don’t belief what Judaism dictates), but rather because I feel it is my responsibility as a Jew to follow those laws.
Also, there isn’t a concept of (at least that I know of) of eternal damnation in Judaism. And, in the Torah (though the rabbis did this) there is no talk about following rules to work for some afterlife.</p>
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<p>What are you talking about? M-theory was created to unify the five different versions of string theory, which were created to resolve the conflict between general relativity and quantum mechanics, both of which have been verified through years of experimentation. It’s all based on elaborate mathematical calculations. Just because it sounds fantastic doesn’t mean it’s not scientific - people once thought the same thing about landing on the moon.</p>
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<p>The means by which religion and science pursue truth are absolutely fundamentally different. The truth at the end of both, however, is the same. All I was saying is that both science and spirituality are seeking the same end in very different ways. </p>
<p>And for the “mystical revelation” comments, do not be so quick to judge. Where would the inventions of Nikola Tesla have been without his well-known interactions with beings beyond our realm of experience?</p>
<p>I know people today who have made major breakthroughs in science, technology, and policy that were introduced through mystical interaction and refined through hard work and research. </p>
<p>The world is a far more fascinating place than most realize.</p>
<p>^But science and religion DON’T always arrive at the same truth - look at the split between the church and Galileo, or the more modern controversy over evolution vs. creationism. I believe the difference is that science looks for the most accurate model of the universe, while religion searches for the model most consistent with the teachings of a certain prophet and/or holy book.</p>
<p>I guess I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “mystical revelation”. I’ll grant that some people who claimed to be mystically inspired have had good ideas. Others have been complete nutcases. In general, I find you can’t assume that such “revelations” are any more accurate than any random idea.</p>
<p>I had never heard that Tesla had interactions with beings “beyond the realm of our experience”. Links pls?</p>
<p>I don’t know what you mean by “mystical interaction”. Interacting with - what, exactly?</p>
<p>“But science and religion DON’T always arrive at the same truth”</p>
<p>Good point. Science actually arrives at the truth.</p>
<p>^LogicWarrior
Science doesn’t arrive at true, it approaches truth.</p>
<p>Says who? God?</p>
<p>hmmmmm
taking me to church was one of the best things my parents did for me. it was not abusive at all.
maybe since I don’t have to wear things special or eat differently or anything, it is not the same?</p>
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Simply upon entering the “temple”–as far as I can think of off the top of my head–no. But, The bible does specify that women cannot wear men’s clothes (and vice versa), and many interpret that this means that women cannot wear pants. Additionally, it says that a woman is to pray with hear head covered and that it is a shame for a man to cover his head. Some interpret this as the woman having to wear a headcovering, and others interpret it as simply requiring the woman to have long hair. Regardless it’s there. And she’s not “expected” to wear a lot of jewelry or fancy clothes, either. </p>
<p>Of course, most churches just say, “Well, God didn’t mean for this to be in the Bible, but he did mean for this, this, and this to be there,” but the fact is that the Bible doesn’t map out some good-guy religion as most folks would have you think (at least, when they try to compare it to Islam as though Islam is crazy and radical–no, their followers just know how to read and do what the Koran says; many christians just ignore what they don’t like).</p>
<p>Anyway, I probably went waaay off-topic, but I have to agree: indoctrinating your children before they can even make up their own minds is wrong. But of course, that’s usually what “God” --whoever he is for you–would want, go figure.</p>
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<p>True, but at the root of religion - the very reason religions last for thousands of years - is a scientific truth masked by mythology and belief that people sense within themselves. A vast majority of people believe in ghosts, for example, yet despite the massive amount of circumstantial evidence, the scientific community continues to deny they exist and refuses to inquire about it. </p>
<p>Highly enlightened people are able to levitate, transport their bodies from one place to another, or even exist in multiple locations at the same time. I have stared into the eyes of a man whose eyes started literally glowing and who saw through to my deepest secrets. This mostly happens in eastern traditions or indigenous ones, but I have seen Muslims able to subject themselves to intense bludgeoning without bleeding or feeling pain. </p>
<p>One can scoff at the “simple” people who adhere to religion, but until science catches up and considers exploring the mind, we will need religion to explain what individuals experience that science won’t explain.</p>
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<p>When individuals open their consciousness to the larger reality, it becomes far more a leap of faith to deny the existence of sentient beings beyond our realm of experience than to accept the scientific status quo as the final word on the matter. I come at this from the perspective of someone steeped in a scientific background that has been inundated with intense guidance from and interaction with beings that most would deny even exist - from multidimensional extraterrestrials to physical interactions with the one we know as Jesus Christ. </p>
<p>Understand that Christians don’t get it yet - they’re lost in a sea of rules and beliefs rooted in division, fear, and self-righteousness, but they’re closer than most would give them credit.
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<p>^The “beliefs that people sense within themselves” are based more on psychological needs than mystical revelation. People WANT to believe it’s possible to roam the earth after death, or to contact dead loved ones, or see for themselves proof of the afterlife. People say they “feel” that ghosts exist, but they only feel that way because they subconsciously want ghosts to exist.</p>
<p>As for the magic tricks you described, I believe it’s just smoke and mirrors. People see what they want to see – notice how children are often blind to the mountains of evidence that Santa Claus doesn’t exist. So it’s relatively easy to fool people when they want to believe your illusion.</p>
<p>Religions last for thousands of years by exploiting people’s psychological needs. For example, Christianity lives off their desire for unconditional love (among many other factors).</p>
<p>Primitive people believed that taking hallucinogenic drugs would allow them to see great truth from the spirit world. Today, we know those visions were nothing more than hallucinations. I’m convinced that today’s “mystical revelations” and “interactions with higher beings” are just tricks played by your subconscious. Many people claim that these interactions occurred in their dreams – the time when the subconscious has the most influence over the senses. Perhaps “opening your consciousness” as you described is simply opening the mind to the suggestions of the subconscious.</p>
<p>@ applejack:</p>
<p>How can your arguments be taken seriously when you make statements like the following:</p>
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<p>You sound like a clone of Sylvia Browne. Go watch Montel and leave the scientific musings to people without an infected brain. OK maybe that was harsh, but you’re clearly able to espouse somewhat coherent arguments. Yet, your adherence to such inane ideas as presented above is incredibly odd. I’m surprised no one has responded directly to the quotes above.</p>
<p>Oh yea and look into some skeptic literature. These are magic tricks. Read up on James Randi and his faux psychic experiment in Australia I believe.</p>
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<p>Someone named “Ari” being an observant Jew, no really?!?!?! You might not “believe” in Judiasm, but the behavior you engage in is obviously the result of childhood indoctrination. Blind adherence to tradition is in the same realm as religion: illogical, short-sighted, and the product of an adult forcing their own values on a vulnerable child.</p>
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<p>Wow, you’re so enlightened. All religions are the same. They all espouse beliefs in invisible beings. Don’t try to make Judaism sound any better than it’s ■■■■■■■■ cousins, Christianity and Islam.</p>
<p>StellaNova - </p>
<p>Step back from your argument and ask yourself who is mired in belief. You are convinced you have the answers and provide what you believe (belief) to be a rational argument (despite lack of concrete evidence). Any who have different experiences you dismiss as wrong, delusional, or psychologically wanting. </p>
<p>Doesn’t that sound like the very religions you’re bashing?</p>
<p>You dismiss what you have not experienced simply because you have not experienced such things for yourself. </p>
<p>I’m conveying firsthand experiences I have had and all you can do is attack me. I’ve had countless supernatural experiences that extend beyond my mind - that involve normal people working behind counters or walking down the street. You’re telling me I’m delusional or making it all up or or whatever pop psychobabble you’re hiding behind to protect you’re worldview, yet refusing to even consider my firsthand experience.</p>
<p>This is precisely what the scientific community has done. Dismiss experience based upon a belief. They did it to a colleague who went on to develop working technologies that shatter many “laws” of science we “believe” to be true today.</p>
<p>What’s really going to frustrate you is that this sort of interaction with the quantum multiverse cannot be proven to those who deny it. It’s there for people who are ready for that level of advancement, but allows those who are not to continue their journey in their own way at their own pace. I denied it for years, myself. But when one’s holding a ball in her hand, it’s hard after a while for that person to argue she’s not holding a ball in her hand.</p>
<p>I’ll offer you a challenge - believe nothing. Deny everything I’ve posted here, but also deny everything you’ve come to believe about a rational world and drugs and smoke and mirrors and all that. Get to a point where you literally believe nothing, then open yourself to any possibility of reality without judgment or expectation. See what happens. </p>
<p>That’s what I did. The way I came to this point was not through belief but through a desire to understand the fundamental truths of our reality and to test every idea or experience in the real world.</p>
<p>It’s what a true scientist would do rather than just deny based on belief taught to him or her by others.</p>
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<p>This post is very bigoted, dontno. Instead of attacking Judaism and someone who follows it, why not inquire about his/her beliefs and what compells him/her to follow that path. You might learn something. </p>
<p>I had a group of Mormons corner me to talk about their faith. I could have responded in your way, since I don’t know anything about Mormonism. Instead, I listened and took their book and read it. I learned a lot. Am I going to become a Mormon? No. Do I believe they have all the answers? No. But, I understand them now. </p>
<p>I would expect more from someone drawn to a college discussion board.</p>
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<p>This has convinced me, more than anything, that your interactions are purely psychological. Why shouldn’t you be able to prove this to a non-believer? A telephone will work even for those who deny it. I know you believe this is more complex than a telephone – but if you need to believe in something to see it, that suggests that it isn’t really there.</p>
<p>In the desert, people see mirages of water. Do we rewrite the laws of physics, or dismiss it as a trick of the mind? I’m not saying that it’s impossible that your interactions are genuine – a psychological explanation is just far more likely. It’s going to take concrete evidence to shatter my worldview. </p>
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<p>A true scientist wouldn’t attach any credibility to experiments that aren’t measurable, observable, repeatable, verifiable, and objective.</p>
<p>Just so you know, I’m not trying to say you’re crazy or that you’re making things up. The subconscious is a powerful force – that’s why scientists need to use placebos. You’re responding in a perfectly understandable way.</p>
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<p>You certainly seem to believe in these higher beings – why should you believe them over everything else? We can’t live without beliefs. The only thing truly certain is mathematics, but that won’t give you the knowledge you need to survive in this world.</p>
<p>I have a challenge for you: Give me detailed, precise, step-by-step instructions on how to contact your higher beings. I will follow them (within reason, I refuse to do anything that could physically harm myself or others). Unless I have a similar experience, I remain unconvinced.</p>
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<p>I have to agree with applejack here, that was harsh. I thought ari gave a convincing argument that Judaism, while not necessarily correct, is at least less exploitative than other religions, because it doesn’t use the fear of hell to control people. If you feel differently, you should give reasons for your opinion. You’re not going to convince anyone by blindly lashing out.</p>