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<p>I’m a bit new to this, so I’ll just ask, despite it being a bit of a stupid question - what is meant, exactly, by “affirmative action” and “holistic admissions process”? I’m assuming by the latter you mean considering much more than just grades (essay and interviews and the like) but I just want to be sure.</p>
<p>Chris - mind if I ask how exactly the “socioeconomic, geographic” factors affect your decisions? Just in general.</p>
<p>Jimmy - </p>
<p>[MIT</a> Admissions: Affirmative Action](<a href=“http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/affirmative_action/index.shtml]MIT”>http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/affirmative_action/index.shtml)</p>
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<p>Here’s a good explanation: </p>
<p>[MIT</a> Admissions | Blog Entry: “Should I include my ethnicity on the MIT Application?”](<a href=“http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/affirmative_action/should_i_include_my_ethnicity.shtml]MIT”>http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/affirmative_action/should_i_include_my_ethnicity.shtml)</p>
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<p>Affirmative action is complex, and quite literally libraries of books exist talking (and arguing) about what it is or should be. It would not only be unwise, but also ultimately unhelpful, to wade into that argument here. </p>
<p>Suffice it to say that we look at all aspects of your application. By way of explanation, let me address your second question. </p>
<p>When I say we consider socioeconomic or geographic factors, that doesn’t mean that being from a certain background or location helps you or hurts you. Being rich, or poor, or from Manhattan, or from North Dakota, doesn’t help or hurt you in and of itself. </p>
<p>Instead, what we look for is how these differences have impacted your education and life thus far. If you grow up on the Upper Peninsula, you may have fewer options because you live in the wilderness; we want to know, and are sensitive to that, because something that looks like a “normal” high school experience for that student may have been the effort of hard striving to do more than is normally offered at her high school. </p>
<p>And when it comes to income, we don’t have a bias for or against any particular class, but it helps us figure out what you’ve done. Did you attend this expensive summer science camp because you’re really passionate about it, or just because you thought it would look good and your parents could afford it? That sort of thing. </p>
<p>We really read quite broadly and consider an almost infinite number of factors.</p>
<p>@MITChris: Your insinuations do not amuse me. In my reference to the genetic lottery, I was merely observing that MIT’s quest for a diverse student body gives certain students an advantage in the admissions process due to their race. </p>
<p>With regard to the admissions statistics you mentioned earlier, is there not a simple explanation for the higher admission rate for Asian applicants? On average, are they not the most academically qualified group, as quantified by GPA and test scores? Yes, MIT’s admissions policy is not based entirely on GPA and test scores; however, one cannot deny that they do play a significant role in the process. As such, it would seem natural for Asian applicants to be admitted at a slightly higher rate than they applied.</p>
<p>Finally, I do not dispute your claim that MIT’s minority students are academically qualified and capable. I trust that MIT’s admissions office can differentiate between the students who can and who cannot succeed at MIT. If I may ask, though, can you say that the majority of URM admitted students have academic qualifications equal to or better than their Asian contemporaries? This is simply a matter of curiosity on my part, and I would greatly appreciate any respone on your part.</p>
<p>Many thanks - that was very insightful. It helps to know the MIT admissions process, or method at least. Knowing that you look at everything is sort of reassuring.
I have one question though - hypothetically, if you get an applicant with a GPA average deemed good enough for success at MIT, statistically, as you said. The program from the school he/she applied is known as adequate or even difficult. However, in class rank the applicant is slightly below par (I’m going by the statistics on the MIT website) and is in the top 15%-20% rather than 10 and below. Would you say this makes a [big/slight] difference in admission? Or is the “GPA success rate at MIT”, as it were, adequate enough? </p>
<p>Small note: I’m going by the assumption that after clearing a certain point in GPA, it doesn’t matter hugely, much like the SAT grades. However I’m inquiring about the factor that class rank poses with respect to the grades. Basically, how class rank matters if you’re qualified in your grades. Perhaps the school is just extremely competitive.</p>
<p>Aside from that, I’d like to ask if you do look at individual grades. For example, in my own case, I have an adequate GPA that would, however, be higher if you scrapped a couple of non-scientific subjects, such as French or Philosophy and such. Or in some (rare) cases, my science/math grades were slightly below par (in my opinion). Besides that, the program here is different than in the US, since here, we take a total of 16 subjects every week (some more than others of course) and after clearing grade 12, we’d normally enter college as sophomores rather than freshmen. How do you think this would affect the admissions process?</p>
<p>I realize that some of my questions may seem a bit unorthodox or a bit more personalized than you’d normally see, so I appreciate all the help you’ve given me :D</p>
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<p>A role that has already been defined. “Get a 700 or so, we stop caring about the rest.” Is that unclear in some way…?</p>
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Good thing this board is meant to give information and correct misinformation rather than amuse you. Insinuations? Really?</p>
<p>@IvanKaramozov: MIT’s admissions blogs and web site go into a lot more detail about the admissions process and what admissions is looking for than any other admissions site I’ve seen. The very fact that MITChris is here answering our questions when he could be at a water park shows that MIT cares very, very much about us understanding exactly what happens to our applications after we hit the submit button.</p>
<p>I used to have my doubts about affirmative action based on race, and I still do (doesn’t economic status play a greater role in your opportunities than race?). But affirmative action in general is a good thing, I think. Wouldn’t college be boring if everyone came from similar cultures?</p>
<p>In Russia, students applying for some math and science institutes take exams to get in. A few decades ago, “affirmative action” worked like this: Jews were given different, more difficult exams, to keep their numbers down. That is discrimination. At MIT, everyone seems to be held to the same standards; it seems like hard work and initiative determine whether or not you get in to a much, much greater extent than race. And I’m pretty sure that everyone there, regardless of his background, is brilliant.</p>
<p>Also, I think anyone born with no deformities or health problems, to parents who are caring, not on drugs, and financially able to support him, in a country with good, available medicine won the lottery, genetic and environmental, so to speak.</p>
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<p>Perhaps. Nonetheless, both are quite significant factors. People who are not regularly involved with this tend to underestimate the influence of race and discrimination in otherwise equal situations, which seems to cause tension on these boards.</p>
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<p>Amen.</p>
<p>@lidusha - </p>
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<p>bing bing bing you won the “correct” lottery!</p>
<p>how come affirmative action related discussion always ends up in the MIT forum?</p>
<p>because when there is a school who admits so few applicants, people can’t accept that their grades, test scores and ECs were absolutly fine, and excellent compared to most other students. But there is not enough room at MIT for all of them and the rejected think race is the excuse/reason as to why they were not accepted.</p>
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<p>I think that’s true, actually. Asians on average indeed have higher standardized test scores than underrepresented minority groups; to deny that is pointless. ([SAT</a> Data Tables](<a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/data-reports-research/sat/data-tables]SAT”>SAT Suite of Assessments - College Board Research))</p>
<p>But then again, “academically qualified” is such a subjective term. I thought that it is also commonly agreed that there is more to academic qualification than standardized test scores and completely objective factors, as the context, the applicant’s available course offerings at school, or personal attributes, which can be partially conveyed through aspects of the application such as teacher recommendations, were thought to be reasonable parameters and considerations for college admission purposes.</p>
<p>I think the more important distinction in cases where URM applicants are admitted with perceivably lower “academic qualifications” is whether they received a boost in admissions simply for being underrepresented in the particular college’s population, in which case they were recruited for their ethnicity alone, or whether they were admitted because they actually grew up in underprivileged circumstances that deprived them of some of the opportunities available to their white or Asian counterparts (or because they indeed have unique cultural backgrounds that would enhance the diversity of the student body, etc). One can be African American, for instance, but has enjoyed more socioeconomic and academic opportunities than a white or Asian student, with families who are more supportive of intellectual endeavors and little cultural diversity to offer. But then again, to lump all URM students together is equally unfair and inaccurate.</p>
<p>In any case, the debate on affirmative action is a controversial issue that belongs more in the <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/927219-race-college-admission-faq-discussion-8-a.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/927219-race-college-admission-faq-discussion-8-a.html</a> thread than the MIT forum. The original point of the thread was to reflect on MITChrist’s assertion that he, as an admission officer, cannot give meaningful and accurate chance based on superficial information normally provided in chance threads, for there are numerous subjective factors involved in the assessment of applications. How come every discussion here ends up on the topic of the role of race in admissions? :rolleyes:</p>
<p>And as a side note: from the discussions in this thread (and every other thread that ended up on this topic) it always sounded as though MIT has such preference for URM students that any black and Hispanic applicant with 2200+ SAT and good GPA are automatically admitted, which is untrue and completely misleading. During those few chances I had to stroll around the MIT campus, I actually saw very few black or Hispanic students, with most being predominantly white or Asian. The URM students I did meet were very impressive in their accomplishments. And besides, MIT is arguably the one with the least emphasis on factors such as athletic recruitment and legacy out of the most selective schools in the nation.</p>
<p>I think what is proably true, and what PiperXP and MITChris are saying is that race doesn’t really affect an admission decision. I mean obviously if AA is a factor then they have quotas to fill (I don’t really know how it works but I assume it is something like this). But even if they had quotas to fill, brilliant applicants of many races must apply to MIT, so even if you are Asian, and you’re worried about getting rejected while a lesser qualified African American, for instance, gets in; this is not the case as everyone who gets into MIT IS BRILLIANT. Everyone most likely has outstanding grades, scores, ECs, etc. As mentioned quite frequently, it is often the esaays and recs that are the most valuable at showing an applicants personality and MATCH with MIT. I really don’t think race is that big a factor/ if any for admission at MIT</p>
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<p>Actually, I think race most definitely does affect college admission chances. Did MITChirst say it did not? Mmm, I’ll go back and reread his posts.</p>
<p>someone said something like “I do not associate an applicants SAT scores with their race”. Anyway I think it would be an extremly unfair practice yo admit or not admitt someone based on race. And the impression I got from this post was that race will not make or break your app</p>
<p>to further clarify my perspective: I think that MIT gets enough competive applicants of all races so I don’t see why race should matter, everyone is some shade of amazing. Forgive me if my understanding of AA is wrong, in my state AA is illegal</p>
<p>@IsaacM - </p>
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<p>Often this is the case. </p>
<p>@xrCalico23 - </p>
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<p>I don’t know if it is “commonly agreed” (witness CC come decision time every year), but it is certainly correct from the vantage point of our process. </p>
<p>@IsaacM - </p>
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<p>We don’t have quotas as per se. We do practice affirmative action, and yes, race does factor into our admissions process. But only as one factor, along with (as I’ve said before) socioeconomic status, geography, crime rates in your hometown, status of school (public? private? funded? underfunded? offer AP?). </p>
<p>Students of all races and ethnicities must be academically qualified for MIT. That means: we must have confidence that you can do the work. That’s why I say that someone with a 750 on the math is just as qualified as someone with an 800: because you’re just as likely to succeed here at MIT. </p>
<p>The practical upshot is; </p>
<p>We don’t accept students who aren’t academically qualified. Period. End of story. It’s not in our interest. It’s not in the student’s interest. </p>
<p>The reason race enters these threads so much is that it’s one of the few salient characteristics that students can seize upon. It’s one of the few aspects of an application (along with GPA and SAT score) that translates well into a forum post. That’s why it’s given an undue importance on these boards - because of the bias of what can be expressed in a forum post. It’s a cognitive bias, an information asymmetry of a sort. </p>
<p>I understand it. But it is frustrating, and if I have to wear my fingers to death I will try to explain it on CC because I (and the rest of the office) cares about this sort of honesty and transparency in our process.</p>
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<p>I believe Mollie said that after being asked if she knew any URMs with perfect scores. Mollie is an alum, not an admissions officer, who has no reason to associate people with scores. College students have more interesting things to talk about ;)</p>