Repeat 8th grade? Help!

Parent Cafe
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<p>Okay, WHEN you have a kid that is “bored” or whatever, it is time for mom to micro manage a bit so that the kid has options in life</p>

<p>Is mom/dad sitting down each night and going over each classes assignments?
Are they creating a check list to get initialed by each teacher weekly to show that work is done and turned in?
Are they having consequences when it is NOT done?
No matter the reason, the work needs to get done and turned in, and by the school just passing him because he tests well does the kid a disservice…</p>

<p>What gets me is all this talk about highly gifted, so smart, etc, while the kid can’t function…that is because they have been allowed to get away with not following through, etc</p>

<p>Would we want a scientist who thinks he is too smart or good to do the tedious research involved, or the writing down of that research in a cohesive manner that others can use? don’t think so</p>

<p>As parents, seems often the “gifted” kid is given a pass to to what other kids have to do, well, that kid needs to just do it</p>

<p>Sure there is busy work, gosh that is going to encountered everywhere and socalled “smart” kids just need to deal</p>

<p>Sorry for the rant, but seems people are giving excuses for laziness and the idea that the kid is better than the work required</p>

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<p>This observation about gifted programs has been made many times. Many just do not address the needs of some or sometimes most of the students in the programs.</p>

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<p>My kids were in afterschool programs after classes ended, so they did not begin homework until after dinner. I would never have insisted that they start homework right after school; they needed time to decompress and regroup. They did stay up a bit late by middle school standards, though not unreasonably so.</p>

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<p>I don’t see that people are expecting gifted kids to “get a pass”, but the truth is, much homework is boring, repetitive busy work. There is absolutely no reason for a student to do 50 problems, when he understands the concept in 10. The other 40 problems are simply a waste of time.</p>

<p>To the OP, retention is quite out of fashion, except after Kindergarten, or when transitioning from public to private school for a chronologically young student (in 6th or 9th grade). Other than that, the research on retention doesn’t seem to indicate that it is really beneficial for most kids.</p>

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<p>To all - isn’t it interesting how many children are in this situation? Mostly boys, it seems, for whom the issue is lack of maturity. I believe that is the core of S’s problem: he’s ‘young’ for his age, doesn’t think through the consequences of not doing work until it is too late. That is why I thought of holding him back - simply to give him another year to grow up a little. But I’m relieved to read most of you advising against repeating 8th grade. It seems very punitive and suspect in its effectiveness. My gut tells me it wouldn’t be a good idea, though my gut also thought, back in 6th grade, that he’d ‘outgrow’ this phase. </p>

<p>What’s interesting to me, is that while this seems to be a fairly common problem for many kids, boys in particular, the education system has not come up with very good solutions to the issue of kids not being emotionally/psychologically ready for what’s expected of them at a sensitive time in their lives. </p>

<p>Citygirlsmom - to answer your questions: when we micromanage S’s work, he does fine. Better than fine. But it takes constant vigilance, and we let up a bit in this first semester of 8th grade, thinking he needs to get ready to be more self-reliant with high school just around the corner. This strategy did not work, it backfired pretty spectacularly. Anitaw, yes, there have been consequences at home for his lack of performing (no snowboarding at all until everything is made up; no snowboarding club until he has no Cs - and this kid lives for snowboarding) As you see, the reprecussions have not yet been enough to change his behavior.</p>

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<p>So it takes constant vigilence…that is what parents are for…sometimes we HAVE to just keep at it, especially if the kid is immature for his age…think about it…you may have a son you just have to stay on top of for longer than the average parent</p>

<p>and sure, work is repetitive, so what? think about researchers, etc…repetition is imperative…acting as if you are too good to do what is asked of you is in my opinion, stupid…if the teacher wants this done, and all the other kids are somehow managing to do it, than just do it, its called growing up</p>

<p>what, when these kids get a parttime job, which is usually pretty rote and repetitive at that age, like folding shirts in a store, or bagging groceries, or doing data entry, will they be able to handle it?</p>

<p>we act as if EVERYTHING “smart” kids have to do should be fascniating all the time…thinking, well, they are smart, so they shouldn’t have to work, that is what we are telling the kids
If they were so smart, they wouldn’t fail, would they?</p>

<p>I am tired of this kind of attitude that well, being “smart” shouldn’t include how to get stuff done that doesn’t always excite you</p>

<p>are we doing them any favors by saying, well, you are smart, and the work is not exciting, so don’t worry about it, because as parents if we let them get away with out turing stuff in and counting solely on test scores to pass, when they are actually doing harder work, they won’t have the tools- organization, writing, planning, etc, all of which need to be learned and practiced will have been missed</p>

<p>This, well, it is boring, cause these are “gifted” kids, should they have LESS work to do than the “average” kid…why can’t they just do the work, if they understand it, it shouldn’t take long, so just do it already, and move on</p>

<p>not doing work creates problems for teachers, who have to sit down and meet with parents of a supposedly smart kid who is bored or lazy…who has to waste time reminding the kid, tracking the work, sending home notes, calling parents, etc…all because the kid couldn’t be bothered…wasting alot of peoples’s time when they could be dealing with kids with real issues, besides boredom…being smart means learning how to be in the world and in the environment you are placed in…so being test smart is useless if you can['t funcition, but if you are CHOOSING to not be bothered as a student, well, you deserve to fail</p>

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<p>To the OP, I think you are on top of it and realize the issues, so my rant was not at you, it was at the general attitude that “smart” kids shouldn’t have to deal with boring stuff…life is often boring…and tedious…and “smart” kids need to learn how to work in the world, even if it means doing stuff they find dull</p>

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<p>Citygirlsmom, I completely understand what you mean about the ‘smart’ label. The only reason I even mention HG is to show that this is a child for whom sheer ability is not an issue. BTW, my favorite of S’s teachers used to tell the kids that the H in HG stood for ‘hardly’. Big grin.</p>

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<p>One of my D’s elementary school classmates fits the profile–really, really bright guy, but couldn’t be bothered with doing schoolwork that didn’t interest him. He didn’t change much as he progressed through middle and high school.</p>

<p>His high school transcript demonstrated his habits–As/Bs and Cs/Ds in equal number.</p>

<p>He ended up becoming a National Merit Semi-finalist, but did not go on to become a finalist because of his grades. He wanted to attend UC Berkeley, but was rejected and is attending the local community college.</p>

<p>Actions do have consequences…when you have lofty goals re college, you really can’t blow off half of your school courses.</p>

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<p>Guess that is really what my fear is…if I just let him do what he would do, what if he gets lazy and dosen’t live up to a fraction of his potential? I do not think my son is MIT material by any means (unlike his MIT alum Dad) but he has “promise”. He is the “total package” (plays trumpet, bright, great at sports, funny and happy kid-he actually hums when he brushes his teeth!) I am definitely a type A personality. I don’t want to crush his enthusiasm but…I don’t want him to be lazy with his schoolwork and thus let his grades slip…I am having a hard time finding a middle ground.</p>

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<p>OP, where does your son do his homework? Perhaps boring, routine homework may be more palatable if it’s done in a more inviting environment. That area may not be what we think of as an ideal study environment-- my son is more productive with homework and produces higher quality materials when he’s in the center of activity-- the kitchen. He’s in high school now but had similar struggles to your son. We also bought him an accordian folder to hold worksheets, assignments that he could place in his backpack when he was that age. At night, he’d pull out the folder and there would be the work for the night. I definitely don’t think holding your son back will help him with organization.</p>

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<p>This reminds me so much of a friend’s son. This boy would not do his homework (boring), could have been top of class and ended up about 50% mark. His mother threatened, curtailed activities, etc. and found nothing much that worked (on him). However, I do have to say she had 6 younger children and really couldn’t stay on top of him as she would have liked. Perhaps some kind of “positive reinforcement” will work–really don’t think negatives work well with this type of child.</p>

<p>On a positive note. The above boy decided to take AP exams in subjects he had never had a class. He took 9 AP exams (only had classes in 3). He never looked at a review book and scored 5’s on every test. He went on to a decent college and could have graduated very early, however had a full ROTC scholarship, so is staying the full 4 years and doing 3 majors and 3 minors. Has done wonderful in college–really blossomed.</p>

<p>Hang in there!!!</p>

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<p>Katliamom, I might be mistaken in my understanding … but somewhere along the line you said that the school would NOT hold your son back, no matter how bad his grades are, because he tested well in all areas. As crazy as that seems, I can see the reason for such a policy – no point keeping a kid around in middle school when he’s already mastered the curriculum. </p>

<p>If in fact your son will be advanced to 9th grade whatever his grades… and if he knows that – I can see the reason for his attitude. If he wasn’t planning to apply to a competitive high school, then he probably figures that his grades don’t count – they won’t be part of his high school transcript, and he can get a fresh start next year. There is an 8th grade slump that is very analogous to the 12th grade senior slump. </p>

<p>Does the charter school for math & science require a strong GPA from 8th grade? Maybe the possibility of that school will help motivate your son.</p>

<p>Other than that, I disagree with the advice to micromanage – unless you want to be doing that forever. As long as you are doing the managing, your son will never take responsibility on his own – he’ll just figure that’s your job. Worse, he won’t develop the skills he needs to succeed in high school or college. </p>

<p>So I’d say, spend some time over winter break discussing the issue of responsibility & consequences with your son. I think you should tell him that you are going to back off and let him make his own choices, but that you won’t bail him out if there are negative consequences, whatever they are. At the same time, offer your support – not management – with organizational problems. Try to work with him figure out where he is going wrong – maybe he needs to carry a planner with him to school, maybe you need a big wall calendar in a prominent place in your house for him to write down appointments and deadlines, maybe he needs some suggestions for structuring his time. But stop being the manager and shift to being the secretary – tell him you will help, but he needs to be the one calling the shots.</p>

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<p>Katlia, my son is exactly the same, although he is a little older now (15, 10th grade). He wasn’t in the gifted program, his school doesn’t have one, and he never made an F, did make a D, and obviously could have done better, although not an academic star.
My husband teaches high school, so he is well acquainted with this syndrome. The 2 of us met with the school GC at about your stage, 2 years ago, and I was totally in tears - but both the GC and DH had the same message.
This is more about YOU, than it is your son. His behavior will not change until he wants it to change, you completely summed up his attitude, “he doesn’t care one bit about his grades” - you are the one who cares about his grades. If As and Bs mean that he has to turn in homework and study subjects that don’t interest him - he isn’t going to do it. I had reached the point where my relationship with my son was almost totally poisoned, I thought he was such a lazy, good for nothing, worthless piece of protoplasm, that I didn’t want to look at him. I simply could not understand how anyone could just not do their homework - it was so simple. I still, 2 years later, do not look at his grades on edLINE. My husband keeps up with them sporadically, but if I start looking at them again, we begin to spiral down into the old pattern.
We set a minimum level (have to keep it simple), no Cs on a report card, Ds would lead to punishment. He has had no Ds since then, but a few Cs, no As in academic classes. Most importantly, he keeps up with his assignments, does his homework (except for very occasional misses, that keep him from an A sometimes), and is beginning to internalize motivation and behaviors that will allow him to succeed in college. Something as simple as asking the teacher or a peer for an explanation when he doesn’t understand a concept is beyond him - he would rather lie to himself, and say “Oh, I understand that” when he really doesn’t. Same with studying, he fools himself into thinking he has studied, when he really hasn’t - but we are making slow progress.
He, though, is much different than he was at your son’s age. His vocabulary is much larger, he reads more, and he is a much more interesting person to be around. We are a kind of odd family, with an odd sense of humor and a love of “intellectual” pursuits - for awhile we thought he was somebody else’s kid, but he becomes more like his Dad every day.
As my husband says - he’s a boy, boys start getting it about age 16, and until they do, you are just pi**ing in the wind when you try to make them something they aren’t.
The kids on CC aren’t normal, in fact, I think the 30000 teenage boys who do get it prior to age 16, are all the ones applying to Ivy League schools ;).</p>

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<p>Oh and to Seiclan, and some others re MIT material.
This will sound harsh, but I have a daughter at Dartmouth, and a 15 year old who may end up at community college, so I think there is truth in what I’m saying.
Undergraduate education at a Dartmouth, or MIT or Harvard or Duke or “fill in the blank” is for the early achievers - notice I did not say “overachievers” or mean to imply that our sons are “underachievers”. My daughter was easily 2 years more mature than her brother at a comparable age - in almost all spheres. He is getting there, the process is just much slower. Sadly, it will limit his college choices - not that I want or think he needs to go to MIT - but, because he also has ideas about where he wants to go to school - closer to home than his sister, bigger school, etc he may not have many choices that meet his criteria.
But, given what I’ve learned the past 2 years, I think he will be OK, even if he goes to a school that I think is not the best choice for him - big state party school for example.</p>

<p>Katlia, I hear what you are saying about the educational system, I think it poorly serves boys, in a way that transcends SE class/geography or race or wealth. If a kid like my son, from an upper middle class family that cherishes learning, doesn’t learn well, what about a kid from the ghetto or rural Appalachia? I read that other thread about radical education reform, and I think the idea of 10th grade high school graduation is intriguing, but what will the population of selective universities look like at that point, if kids tested into them at age 16? Would they be 75% female? Could be.</p>

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<p>cangel, superb advice. thanks so much.</p>

<p>calmom, ditto - and you’re probably 100% on target with your idea "If in fact your son will be advanced to 9th grade whatever his grades… and if he knows that – I can see the reason for his attitude. " – this actually hasn’t occured to me before. More food for thought. About the charter school - it’s strictly by lottery. Supposedly. If grades are a consideration, he won’t get in. On the other hand, if the required teacher recommendations are a consideration, he might: two teachers offered to write letters saying how that particular school would be a good fit for him, and vice versa. We’ll see; at least the wait isn’t long - we’ll know by the end of january.</p>

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<p>just wanted to thank katliamom for starting this thread. thanks also to everyone for posting. posts from cangel and citygirlsmom have both been really helpful as have many others. we find ourselves in a similar boat with my ds who is now in middle school …so seeing others post of their experiences is truly helpful :slight_smile: i especially like citygirlsmom’s message about diligence.</p>

<p>i recently read portions of a new book:</p>

<p>What Colleges Don’t Tell You …And Other Parents Don’t Want You to Know… 272 Secrets for Getting Your Kid into the Top Schools …
by Elizabeth Wissner-Gross </p>

<p>I believe I recall that the author stressed the importance of GRADES…and it got my attention. </p>

<p>I did not have these types of homework concerns with my d who has now moved on to college…so the issues with my son and his homework are new ground for me :slight_smile: reading threads such as this one on cc are very helpful indeed :)</p>

<p>thanks everyone :)</p>

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<p>Cangel - you are so right…IVY’s are for early achievers and my son is not. My son is just a little boy who is turning 13…he wants to go fishing and play runescape, not do 50 extra math problems so that he can be cutting edge in academia. It is ok. I tell myself that every evening over a nice glass of pinot noir.</p>

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<p>Yeah, combine your pinot with ice cream - Etude Pinot Noir and butter pecan are an especially therapeutic combination!</p>

<p>I still worry, don’t get me wrong, I’ve just accepted that there is little I can do about it without hounding my son to the point of ruining our relationship, or having the whole thing backfire. I read that stuff about grades, and i just hope that LACs will be so starved for boys by 2008-2009, that they will take a chance on him. Meanwhile, he wants to go to LSU, this week, because he thinks he can watch football.</p>

<p>I’m trying so hard to keep an open mind. Our D achieved academically, and it was obvious from an early age that she did not fit well with the bulk of her peers, and really needed to be in a school with lots of bright high achieving kids (for those who are wondering, we discussed boarding school at more than one point in her life, but finally, decided against it - a joint decision with her) - it would be worth it for her to go to the most selective school that she could be admitted to, and it would be a good investment of her “inheritance” for her to attend such a school.
What will be best for DS is much less clear, at least in part because he is still changing so much. Should we “buy” him a place in a smaller school? Should we insist he go to the in-state public on his pre-paid tuition plan, and save funds for grad school or a business or a house? What if we think a smaller school would be best for him, but he still wants to go to LSU? How much of a chance do we take on him? With his grades, there won’t be any merit money, so any private school will be expensive. Admission might be less of a crapshoot with him, but the decision of what to try for will be much more difficult than it was with my daughter.</p>

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<p>cangel, you have no idea how much better I feel about my family situation after reading about your children, justknowing that there are others struggling with the same types of issues. My situation is virtually identical to yours except my daughter is one year behind my son in school. He is a definite underachiever who is really struggling with so many of the issues you have described-- and you’re right, it’s my problem with his grades, not his. He’s the one that has to care. What great insight you’ve brought to this discussion.</p>

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<p>What I realized too late with my oldest is that HG often is accompanied by other issues. ADD and LDs are common. The most important thing was finding a school with a good fit and the attention to the discipline he needed, something we’ve successfully done with 8th grade stepson. My oldest continued underachieving through high school and ended up at a CC. We finally found a good therapist and got proper assessments when he was a college freshman and he is now in the most competitive program at a top UC doing very well.</p>

<p>Make sure you get a great assessment. If private school is a possibility look at those too.</p>