Sad and perplexed

Parent Cafe
21

<p>Well weighing ino n this as a teen with a sibiling affected yes, and had serious adverse effects from his vaccines. Just want to put out this a possibility, and of course this can be argued till dooms day, but there are several well known facts about certain vaccines, genetics, and timing of events. Again my sincere belief and wathching my little brother it is all timing of events, the load given and predisposition. </p>

<p>The above makes what happened to my brother clearly a plausable cause and also for thousands of other kids. </p>

<ol>
<li>Recieved nitrous oxide during a surgery when he was 2 months old. (Nitrous oxide blocks the methionine syntase reductase enzyme from processing b12-b12 critical for brain growtth) received a hep b vaccine the week before the surgery</li>
<li>50 %of of European ancestry have a SNP in the MTRR enzyme, combined with a SNP in the MTHFR enzyme (perhaps where the genetic sususptibility comes in, as well as the increased prevalance)</li>
<li>Infants are over prescribed GERD meds, these meds also block b12 uptake some infants are on these medications for YEARS (znatac etc)</li>
<li>Admninister a thimerosal vaccine (yes we know it is “almost” completely removed from vaccines except the flu which does contain the entire dose of toxin which is still strogly pushed for pregnant women) .The group of kids in the 90’s and into early 2003 got the full load of thimerosal) </li>
</ol>

<p>5.This is what thimerosal does on the MTRR/MTHFR polymorphism which again upwards of 50%of European ancestry has this snp, can provide the pubmed studies for that as evidence</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.autismwebsite.com/ari/dan/p_deth.htm[/url]”>http://www.autismwebsite.com/ari/dan/p_deth.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>This information is readily available, and there are doctors with credibile research, unfortunately mainstream media bows to pharma.</p>

22

<p>Samiamy, thank you for posting. This is the kind of research we need to see more of.</p>

<p>1of42, you sound like so many doctors, and this is why parents are angry and upset, and why I am sad and perplexed. I’ll bet you have no personal experience with autism. May you never.</p>

<p>My bottom line is this: until the incidence of autism goes down, we do not know what is causing it. Period. Until we find a cure, then everything is suspect. </p>

<p>Finally, please, 1of42, lose the condescending tone. Your tone is exactly what parents dealing with heartbreak 24/7 have to deal with much of the time when trying to tell their stories while shelling out every penny they have for therapy and treatments not covered by insurance. I am finding it naive and grossly offensive. You think there weren’t studies showing cigarette smoking to be benign for two decades? You were not born yet, I suspect. We used to be told cigarettes were good for the digestion! When I was a child the only warning was to not smoke in bed!!!</p>

<p>If parents closest to this thing say there’s a link to vaccine, then I will listen. They are not stupid, they are not ignorant, they are not antiscientific, they are not conspiricists, and they are not campaigners. They just do not another child to be brain damaged.</p>

23

<p>I hope that the same parents, who express such concern about the possible (though never proven) connection between vaccines and autism express the same concern about a number of medications that are prescribed for children on the autism spectrum, including anti-psychotics, anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications. </p>

<p>None of these medications have been tested on children, there are no longitudinal studies, and the short term studies express grave issues about their use in children.</p>

<p>For consistency’s sake, I surely hope that parents who are putting the rest of our children at risk by not vaccinating, are showing the same concern about the very real potential dangers of these other medications.</p>

24

<p>allmusic, absolutely. I know a parent who medicates her children just to get through a normal day. The family truly cannot function without these children taking medications. I worry about what this is doing to their bodies, but I understand and see the necessity for these 2 kids. It breaks my heart. I am not saying that they are autistic, but they both have learning and emotional problems.</p>

25

<p>If you have a normal full term breastfed baby who is being cared for at home instead of in daycare, many of these vaccinations can very reasonably WAIT, as is done in other countries… and lo and behold when he is older, fewer boosters are required to achieve immunity, and some of the side effects of the actual diseases are much less serious.</p>

<p>The current vaccination schedule has a great deal to do with compliance-- getting them all in in that first year or so, when parents show up at the pediatrician monthly. </p>

<p>PS Having a ten year span between eldest and youngest children I had the funny experience of hearing “Nah, don’t bother with the chicken pox vaccine” from my oldest D’s pediatrician (when it was optional) and “Chicken pox can be LETHAL!” when I questioned it for my youngest S.</p>

<p>Marketing?</p>

26

<p>Wow, samiamy, thanks for the great info!</p>

<p>1of42, samiamy just demonstrated why <em>I</em> am personally not qualified to say much more in this discussion, at least not in terms of the detailed ‘proof’ you are asking for. Thankfully, I do not have personal experience with side effects of vaccines (since I did not vaccinate my child) and I have not kept up with the issue (since he is now 19). </p>

<p>Much more pertinent is the info provided by people like samiamy for whom it IS relevant (heartbreakingly so) and who are obviously keeping up with the vast amount of info available.</p>

<p>Allmusic: Yes indeed, these same parents question other medications as well. And, parents who have not had to deal with vaccines but who choose to follow an alternative health paradigm tend to be consistent in their dedication to minimizing potentially toxic chemicals wherever they are to be found, whether it’s in food, medications, the environment, whatever. What most people are not aware of is that there are many such cases that have responded favorably to alternative therapies.</p>

<p>However, alternative therapies require more time-consuming research and dedication. Despite little or no support from the mainstream, parents (and the public in general) are increasingly turning to alternative therapies. I sell health insurance. We now cover chiropractic and acupuncture! This would have been unheard of 20 years ago.</p>

<p>There are resources to be found. There ARE alternatives to be considered, if they truly are concerned about the potential long-term effects of the meds. </p>

<p>Here is a book I read many years ago, about a boy who could not function in society without meds, similar to what northeastmom described. It was a very interesting story about how they used alternative therapies and supplements and completely changed his life around:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Complicated-Child-Simple-Options/dp/0941903192/ref=sr_1_1/104-7906858-7356726?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192980604&sr=1-1[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/Complicated-Child-Simple-Options/dp/0941903192/ref=sr_1_1/104-7906858-7356726?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192980604&sr=1-1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>This is anecdotal, of course. I know of a woman whose son became autistic from what she believed were the vaccinations. She too followed a similar approach. At the time I met her, the child was 8 and could not talk, only grunt. He took 1.5 hours to fall asleep each night, because he was so perpetually agitated. He required her full attention and it was wearing her down. She adopted some of the same remedies outlined in this book and within 2 days he fell asleep promptly at night, and within a few weeks began talking in understandable phrases. People at the grocery store would comment on his dramatically improved behavior. He was still autistic, but his quality of life was substantially better. This is a TRUE STORY from someone I knew personally. There are MANY such stories out there. They are ignored by the medical establishment because they are anecdotal.</p>

<p>But to the parents whose kids have been helped by these modalities, it matters not. Only the wellbeing of their kids matter. They don’t have time for the medical establishment (which is a multi-billion $$-a-year INDUSTRY, btw) to take notice, get beyond the almighty profit being the driving force, and catch up.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Excellent point. Extended breastfeeding dramatically strengthens the immune system. A lot of the dilemma has to do with lifestyle.</p>

<p>And yes, marketing has a LOT to do with it!</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Thank you.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes, that is the bottom line.</p>

27

<p>I find it interesting to see that the anti-vaccination arguments thrive on accusations of arrogance, etc. from the medical community. The problem is that a baseless claim that vaccines cause autism will encourage parents not to vaccinate. I know many parents in my community who have taken that stand. So, you might ask, what? What business is it of anyone else? Take a quick read from Wikipedia:

</p>

<p>So we have three diseases with well-documents histories of causing sickness, retardation, sterility, birth defects and death. They’ve all been pretty close to eradicated through vaccination, with the result that enough parents feel comfortable skipping vaccination for their kids that one guy returning from abroad could cause a mini-epidemic because there were enough un-vaccinated kids around to spead the disease. Think what would have happened if the surrounding communities weren’t “well-vaccinated”? For now the risk of epidemics of those diseases is still pretty low because the rest of us are vaccinating, protecting not just our own kids but also the unvaccinated ones. What happens when non-vaccination becomes even more trendy than it is now? </p>

<p>So my issue with anti-vaccinators is that they’re not just making a decision for their own kids - they are exposing their entire community to an increased risk of sickness, birth defects and death. Who are the “arrogant” ones in this picture? And people who encourage that - with faux-science and slickly packaged anecdotal “evidence” – are increasing a known and proven risk to the community by scaring parents with tales of unproven (and in fact disproven) risk to their kids. Villified? Seems about right to me.</p>

28

<p>Is there any evidence (even anecdotally) that vaccines cause austism in adolescents or adults? If not, what is the reason those not-previously-immunized individuals are not being immunized now?</p>

29

<p>There is no evidence whatsoever. This is what makes those of us who follow epidemiological studies more than a little nuts.</p>

<p>You non-vaccinators are making decisions that put the greater public at risk, based on nothing more but hysteria and junk science.</p>

<p>and PS…I know PLENTY of parents of autistic children, who are on the screeching anti-vaccine bandwagon, that have their kids medicated up the wazoo with dangerous adult medications. So, there isn’t any consistency to this fear of the medical establishment at all.</p>

30

<p>There isn’t even agreement among experts that autism rates have soared. I taught learning disabled kids in the 70s and the numbers soared then because the definition was expanded, testing was emphasized and the diagnosis resulted in getting help for kids who needed it so many who didn’t belong in that category found their way in. The same thing happened later with ADD and ADHD. The “vaccine court” started hearing its first case in June - I’m not sure what the time table is for decisions, but the results of that cases should interesting. The standard there is whether it is more likely than not that the vaccines caused autism so the standard is pretty low. The autism lobby is a strong one, but there is no such thing as a level playing field when it comes to pharmaceutical companies. For those of you who want to know how far the pharma companies are in the pockets of the politicians, read about how protection for Eli Lilly was put in the original Homeland Security Act.</p>

31

<p>

</p>

<p>I don’t know. But now that my son’s 19, it’s his choice of course. He has chosen to not get any vaccinations. I would imagine that there are probably very few people who’ve chosen to not vaccinate who would change their minds later. But that’s only speculation based on my own reasons for not vaccinating, which are that I remain more frightened of the vaccines than the illnesses they are supposed to protect.</p>

<p>kluge: I hesitate to say this, knowing that I will probably be giving you ammunition to attack my statement. But, here goes…</p>

<p>I’ve already addressed that point. I will add only that it is the way of society that we often affect others. For example, there have been cases in which large corporations polluted and cancer rates went up in that area.</p>

<p>All we can do is make the best possible decision for our own children. But many of us who choose not to vaccinate honestly do believe that vaccinations are not the answer, at least not in their present form, for the society as a whole. No, we don’t have the right to decide for the entire population. But neither should we be held responsible for something beyond our control: viruses and the immune systems of others. It’s clear that many factors affect the immune system, including junk food diets and environmental factors, in addition to genetics. Which is why there are always some people who simply don’t get the disease. It could just as easily be argued that mothers who do not breastfeed their babies are putting others at risk, since it has been proven that breastfeeding dramatically improves the immune system for the rest of the child’s life.</p>

<p>So, I did not vaccinate. But I DID breastfeed. So I think that balances it out. (How many mothers who vaccinated their children did not breastfeed? Are you going to attack them for jeopardizing others, since their children might be more susceptible to being those few who are vaccinated yet still succumb to the disease?)</p>

<p>I will explain another reason I chose not to vaccinate.</p>

<p>When I did my research 19 years ago, one of the books I read (don’t remember which one, sorry, so please don’t ask me to reference this) showed graphs of the rise and falls of diseases. The book maintained that diseases have a natural cycle. (Which is why the plagues of the middle ages disappeared on their own, without vaccines.) The graph showed that, with the exception of tetanus, the major diseases were already on the decline when the vaccines were introduced.</p>

<p>This same book made a very good case for the idea that, each time a person gets vaccinated, even though s/he might be immune to THAT particular disease, his/her overall immunity is weakened.</p>

<p>Therefore, IF this hypothesis is true, a vaccinated person might be immune to polio, measles, etc. but would actually be MORE susceptible to some new mutated virus that we haven’t even encountered yet.</p>

<p>It is true that viruses can mutate. With the increase in poisons on the planet and chemicals in our bodies, those who subscribe to the natural paradigm see vaccinating as decreasing overall immunity, and would rather take their chances with diseases no longer likely to rage as epidemics, in favor of increasing their immunity to possible future diseases.</p>

<p>Now, before you attack: I cannot back any of this up. I don’t even remember the name of the book. Maybe I was a fool to believe it, you might think. But at the time, as I said before the age of the internet, I had to work with the information that was available to me.</p>

<p>This was not the only reason for my decision, but one of many. The only reason I share it now is in response to the ‘you are irresponsible and jeopardizing others by not vaccinating’ accusation.</p>

<p>I just wanted to explain that some of us DID take the issue of the ‘entire population’ into account.</p>

32

<p>

</p>

<p>To be sure, not all anti-vaccination people are into natural medicine. I have no way of knowing the statistics. I believe I used the word ‘many’ when referring to those who follow a natural paradigm. If I said ‘most’ then I will correct it to ‘many’ or even ‘some.’</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Very important point.</p>

33

<p>Cartera, to what “vaccine court” are you referring? Would you be so kind as to provide a link or two? I’d like to follow this.</p>

<p>Thank you.</p>

34

<p>Way back when…I had multiple miscarriages that left me feeling I may never carry a baby to term. That caused me to read everything I could get my hands on about how to grow a healthy baby inside me. I ate carefully, I exercised carefully, I held my breath and walked fast to get in front of smokers…and I took medicine every day throughout my pregnancy. I researched natural childbirth and took Bradley classes and (miraculously!) gave birth to a big, healthy baby girl and, 20 months later, a bigger, healthy baby boy. I breastfed them for half the worldwide average time and six times the US average, fed them organic food and faithfully read Mothering magazine. I did my due diligence on vaccinations and decided it was better to vaccinate than to risk contracting the diseases.</p>

<p>Flash forward to my kids’ teenage years: I was diagnosed with a deadly disease. I now know I was fortunate to have survived childbirth…twice. I spent two years obsessively researching the issues that accompany my disease. I am thankful there are doctors out there who have dedicated their lives to expanding the knowledge base on my disease. None of those doctors live near me. The doctors who live near me are not the ones publishing research. There are good doctors who live near me, but none who have made it their business to fully understand my particular disease. My understanding is better than theirs, in terms of my up-to-date knowledge of studies and treatment.</p>

<p>The published studies from 15 years ago about my disease have been contradicted many times over and the science has progressed. When anecdotal evidence has pointed in a given direction, science has followed and proven or disproven and medicine as responded accordingly–at least among those who have kept up. In the meantime, people have died. </p>

<p>The broad spectrum of disorders that are Autism deserve the same sort of diligence. It is in the best interest of the patient (or, by proxy, his advocate/parent) to keep abreast of the developments in the diagnosis, prevention and treatment of the disease. Science (by definition, " knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method") must be the foundation for responsible treatment, or prevention, of any disease. </p>

<p>If you as a parent feel you have a complete understanding of the science as it exists and make a choice regarding prevention or treatment for your child, you must make that choice and make no apologies. Reasonable people will disagree with your choices and only the knowlege that you did your best with the available information will sustain you.</p>

<p>As an aside, my (fully vaccinated) teens had Pertussis last spring. My son got it first and went undiagnosed because his pediatrician was so convinced it had been all but completely irradicated through vaccination and he and the local lab were not up on the current protocols for diagnosis. He was given a less-than-fully-effective test after the time when it could have had reliable results. I was all but convinced he had it and was able to get my daughter diagnosed with her first symptom–thus effectively confirming both cases. Because they had been immunized, their cases were “mild”. An unimmunized infant with the same “mild” symptoms–intermittant violent coughing followed by 1+ (very scary) minutes without inspiration followed by loud, whooping inspiration, followed by vomiting–might very well have died. For us it was merely a matter of missed time from school, embarrassment (vomiting at school), and a nuissance to be cleaning up vomit on the carpet, the bed, the furniture many, many times over the 3-month course of the disease. The Pertussis vaccine (the P in DPT) begins losing efficacy after five years. It is unclear whether having the disease confers immunity; they have been revaccinated.</p>

35

<p>This will be my last post on this.</p>

<p>Here is the most recent expert info I could find:</p>

<p><a href=“http://autismmedia.org/wakefield2aq.html[/url]”>http://autismmedia.org/wakefield2aq.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

36

<p>firsttimemom - here is one link that describes it, but just google “vaccine court” and you will gets lots of info. </p>

<p><a href=“HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost”>HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost;

<p>Additionally, Dr. Wakefield is quite controversial in that he used subjects for his research that were supplied by attorneys suing the MMR manufacturers. He was also paid quite a bit of money that he did not report. I think the investigation into conflict of interest is ongoing but he had to resign his post in Britain over it and his research has been discounted.</p>

37

<p>I don’t know the controversy regarding Dr. Wakefield, but I do know that there is something about the chemicals and additives in cereals, simple carbohydrates, etc, that has long been suspect to me, irregardless of autism. </p>

<p>The depression, cognitive disorders, that he discusses are often improved for MANY children, when gluten is reduced or simple carbs eliminated. There seem to be a number of neurocognitive illnesses, as I mentioned on the deleted thread, which have emerged in the late 20th C, as people eat more crud and junk in their diets, and we live in an increasingly toxic world.</p>

<p>I don’t doubt there may be some link between autism and other cognitive disorders, that can be linked to toxins. I don’t doubt that kids with autism improve on a gluten free diet. But neither of these claims link autism to vaccines.</p>

38

<p>An anecdote from the world of evidence-based medicine and an experience with autism.</p>

<p>A few days ago I had a mother and her 5 year old son in my office. The boy had a profile of Asperger syndrome, but not quite severe enough to warrant the diagnosis- The mother had never heard of Asperger syndrome before and as I was describing the diagnosis the mother became teary eyed.</p>

<p>She had spent years in marriage therapy with her husband (not at the office because they are separated and living in different locations). Her main complaint all along was that he was not able to empathize or understand her perspective. As we talked about her son she and I came to the realization that her husband, too, has the Asperger profile. He would never have been diagnosed as a child as the higher functioning end of the Autism spectrum was not recognized then. </p>

<p>Like most people of his generation, he probably had the natural infections and not the vaccine. </p>

<p>The symptom profile has always been there and the answer is not in vaccines. The biggest problem with the concern about vaccine is that it takes valuable time away from figuring out what the real issues are.</p>

39

<p>The term ‘wholistic’ contains the word ‘whole’ thus acknowledging that there are many complex factors to any given issue. While conventional medicine seeks to isolate a particular substance as ‘the’ cause, it falls short in the consideration of multiple causes.</p>

<p>Case in point: I read in a mainstream magazine (Our Kids) back in the early 90s (I can dig out the issue if anyone wants me to) that children by age 2 have already consumed their entire lifetime’s allotment of toxic chemicals such as preservatives.</p>

<p>Age 2!!!</p>

<p>Now, the real kicker is that it was referring to INDIVIDUAL chemicals and did not even take into consideration MULTIPLE chemicals!</p>

<p>Chemicals have reactions to other chemicals. A co-worker of mine nearly died last year from reactions to several meds he was on - individually the side effects were not serious but his doc determined it was the cocktail that did it.</p>

<p>I can see by the various posts in this thread that many subscribe to the ‘single cause’ theory: ie if there is some other cause of autism, then it can’t be vaccines.</p>

<p>However, it is entirely reasonable that SOME children are susceptible to the toxins (and yes, vaccines are full of known toxins) for various reasons, many of which are difficult to quantify.</p>

<p>Did the man in anitaw’s post get his condition from vaccines? I have no way of knowing, since I don’t know his age or whether he was vaccinated or not. Anitaw seems to have reason to think it was not from vaccines.</p>

<p>This in no way contradicts the hypothesis that many cases of autism (and other conditions) may be triggered by vaccines. These children may have had predisposing factors, such as genetics, exposure to certain toxic chemicals in their environment, etc. which together created conditions ripe for serious side effects, and the vaccination pushed them over the edge. Safety testing on vaccines is done on HEALTHY individuals and do not take into account the potential effect on a child with unknown predispositions. Because of the vastness of these unknown possibilities, I have no idea how they would even begin to test for them. (Could this be a clue as to why this idea is being downplayed? The cost of such an undertaking?)</p>

<p>My point is that it is foolish to completely rule out anything until all these myriad factors have been taken into consideration. Never before in the history of the human race have we been subjected to the toxic stew we are exposed to on a daily basis. To rule out these poisons in our foods, medications, and environments is the height of foolishness. Yet that is what the medical establishment is essentially doing. By its insistence that anyone who questions these factors is a ‘whacko’ or is ‘hysterical’ they are negating some very powerful forces at work here and disregarding what may be major pieces to the puzzle.</p>

40

<p>anitaw, isn’t it possible that there is more than one answer to the cause of this disease? Years ago, were this many children walking around with the symptoms (even if the label of autism was not there) of autism? If not, then perhaps there is more of an explanation than just genetics. In one of my earlier posts on the thread, I mentioned that I just learned of a small public school in NJ that just closed down. Apparently there was an unusually high pecentage of staff who worked there, and then gave birth to children who delivered autism. The possible link between that work environment and autism of their offspring is currently being studied.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkzJmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk3MTczNDk1[/url]”>http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkzJmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk3MTczNDk1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;