<p>lealdragon: That’s one of the most naive misconceptions about herbs. If an herb is just an immune booster, then it might not have antibiotic properties, and might not kill bacteria directly. But, some ingredient (or combination of ingredients) is causing the effect. In the same way, Cat’s Claw (a cancer-fighting herb), contains ingredients (or certain combinations of ingredients) that are cytotoxic or inhibit growth. And so forth.</p>
<p>It always mystifies me when people class herbs separately from drugs, as if herbs don’t get their efficacy from chemical compounds like everything else.</p>
<p>leal: Which question? The one about doing something I believed harmful to my child? I already answered that. Read carefully. I also pointed out why it’s not relevant.</p>
<p>Regarding the antibiotic question, it seems pretty obvious why people give antibiotics to their children. Usually its because there is a chance the child might die or lose their hearing or sight or limb, without it. Remember when people regularly died of strep throat? Now strep is easily treated with antibiotics. My D had major bone-graft surgery on her foot, and the doctor prescribed an antibiotic afterwards to prevent infection so she wouldn’t lose her foot.</p>
<p>Yes, you told me that the last time I asked (Now its you who won’t answer a question!) Again, why didn’t you have him vaccinated at 17 (your choice)?</p>
<p>Do a search on “herbal antibiotic”, and you’ll get multiple hits. Ever heard of propolis? It has herbal origins and mild anti-bacterial properties. How about garlic, onions and raspberries? Ditto there.</p>
<p>Silver metal is not anti-microbial, but it slowly converts to silver ions (Ag+) which are believed to be anti-microbial.</p>
<p>Yes but the difference is that herbs have supporting constituents whereas drugs are isolated compounds. This is why herbs generally don’t have the side effects that drugs too. Their action is not as fast or as severe.</p>
<p>Bay: I never said that my decision had anything to do with his age. It was others who mentioned ideas like waiting til the child was older.</p>
<p>Also, I never said I was against appropriate use of antibiotics. I got antibiotics last year when I had dental work done. Again, it was an analogy.</p>
<p>“It always mystifies me when people class herbs separately from drugs, as if herbs don’t get their efficacy from chemical compounds like everything else.”</p>
<p>1of42, you have read my mind! It is amusing to me see “chemical-free” foods or better yet “organic sugar” (everything is made of chemicals and sucrose is by definition an organic molecule, duh!)</p>
<p>Ah, leal, I suppose you’re a biochemist and pharmacological expert now too, yes? Or are you just buying into the “but herbs are DIFFERENT” stuff like everyone else?</p>
<p>While I do agree with you in some ways that herbs act a little bit differently than most medicines, it’s shallow to say that they’re different at a basic level. It’s also shallow to assume that any general rule about their difference in efficacy can be made.</p>
<p>At 17 myself, even if my parents wanted me to, I would refuse.</p>
<p>Honestly doesn’t one wonder what the long term effects of gardisil maybe down the road? Infertility? Sure would rather rely on frequent testing versus an unknown. And this one is CLEARLY an unknown. </p>
<p>never fully vindicated simian virus from the infected polio vaccines given in the late 50’s and 60s’. They have made errors before, and denied it for a long time. the CDC, they approve/mandate the vaccines yet are in charge of monitoring the safety, kind of weird if you ask me.</p>
<p>Thanks for the info, samiamy. Nice to hear from someone who made his own choice! And your dad a pediatrician! Very telling.</p>
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<p>1of41, BB & Bay:</p>
<p>Please don’t start a new debate on the chemical difference between herbs & drugs. (well, do what you want, but I have no interest in participating.) It seems to me you are just trying to catch me in a mistake about something. It’s antagonistic. I don’t claim to have any background in chemistry. I only mentioned herbs in passing, when explaining that I didn’t just do ‘nothing.’ I didn’t just ‘not vaccinate.’</p>
<p>Regarding not vaccinating, leal and swam wrote:</p>
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and
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<p>Ok, I guess I missed something in this discussion then (which wouldn’t surprise me because my computer locks up everytime I click on a link, so I haven’t been able to read any links in this thread ). I thought the argument was against immunizations in young children because of the suspected link to autism. So what is the objection to vaccinating 17-year-olds?</p>
<p>Personally for me, I am going on what I have read and what specifically my aunt has seen with Gardisil, thats one I wouldn’t take. The adult flu vaccine has thimerosal in it, again not getting into a spitting contest about its safety. Mercury is bad in your veins in your brain, doesn’t belong in medicines of any kind period.
Aluminum in vaccines is not good either, that is what is used to cause the immune response significant amounts of aluminum. Those parents that feel it necessary to challenge that with not having published studies to back it up, please it is readily available. Aluminum toxicity is well known in dialysis patients from not realizing its effects prior.
The ingredients in vaccines Im sure have a purpose, but I don’t want them in my body. My friend inadvertantly got two DTap within a 4 month time frame, full thimerosal dose, he is 19 years old. He is having neurological symptoms, yeah correlation/causation heard it before, but why would a healthy 19 year old suddenly develop MS type symptoms 3 weeks after the 2nd DTap? Doctors agree it might be from the two vaccines being such a short time. Agian perhaps the first would have been fine, but maybe not?</p>
<p>1of42: My question was, since you admitted that you would ‘obviously’ not do something to your child that you thought was harmful, what right do you have for blaming me for also not being willing to do something to my child that I think is harmful?</p>
<p>And, it is entirely relevant. I have no problem with disagreement. You and I have disagreed before, respectfully. What I have a problem with is you accusing me of being ‘irresponsible’ while admitting that you would do the same (protect your child from something you deemed harmful). It’s hypocritical.</p>
<p>Because I don’t believe you can responsibly, rationally, think that vaccination is harmful, at least certainly not harmful enough to be more harmful than not vaccinating.</p>
<p>And yes, I believe what you’re arguing is irresponsible. Between the hysteria that such unfounded vaccination claims cause, and the ensuing loss of population immunity for everyone if any great number of people follow your advice, I think you’re being irresponsible. Sorry if that offends you, but that’s what I think. 100%.</p>
<p>Bay: There are varying degrees of objection to vaccinations. Some people are against all vaccines, at any age, while others are selective about some vaccines or perhaps space them out, or wait until the child is older, etc.</p>
<p>I personally am in agreement with samiamy. If the individual components of vaccines have been proven harmful (as indeed they have) then I consider them toxic substances. Injecting toxic substances goes against my health paradigm, which states that the best route to health is to strengthen the immune system and nourish the system, not weaken it.</p>
<p>If they created a nontoxic vaccine, I’d be in favor of it. I do agree with the concept of innoculation (becoming immune to a small amount of the virus). Homeopathy utilizes this principle. See Dr. Dorothy Shepherd’s book (linked in an earlier post) about the use of homeopathy during epidemic in Europe.</p>
<p>No, I am not going to ‘prove’ the effectiveness of homeopathy. Again, there are plenty of resources available if anyone is interested in the subject.</p>
<p>Neither am I proposing that everyone quit vaccinating and start using homeopathy. They belong to 2 different paradigms (although increasingly there are MD’s who use both in a complementary fashion). I mention it in the same way I mentioned herbs and colloidal silver: in passing to show that there is an entire world of info out there in the ‘wholistic’ paradigm which is part of my reality but may be foreign to many who are participating on this thread. Therefore, it is impossible to fully explain my stance on this subject.</p>
<p>1of42: Well I could respond by saying that I think you’re being irresponsible feeding your kids meat, letting them drink sodas, using antibiotics when they’re not absolutely necessary, etc. </p>
<p>But, ya know, I respect your right to do those things.</p>
<p>For someone who claims to champion the rights of women, I find it very inconsistent that you would deny parents the right to decide what’s best for their children, while claiming that same right for yourself.</p>
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<p>Well, you’re wrong because lots of intelligent, rational people do just that. Why do you insist on projecting your opinion onto others? (you know what they say about opinions.)</p>
<p>lealdragon: I assume you’re saying “kids” in a hypothetical sense. ;)</p>
<p>Anyways, I respect your right to feed your kids what you want, or take care of them how you want, so long as it does not infringe on anyone else. This does.</p>
<p>You did not address the hypocrisy. You admitted that you would not give something to your children if you thought it was harmful, even if others thought it was harmful to THEM. Why do you attempt to hold others to a standard you yourself would not abide by?</p>
). I thought the argument was against immunizations in young children because of the suspected link to autism. So what is the objection to vaccinating 17-year-olds?</p>