<p>Ah, but I think you just laid it out right there - you said if transfers start not graduating then there might be a problem. Which gets back to my other idea - let’s publish a true study that shows a true apples-to-apples comparison of graduation rates, and let’s see whether there really is a difference between transfer student graduation rates and of freshman-admits that have made it to the upper division (as opposed to the overall graduation rate of all freshman-admits). </p>
<p>Your other idea - different ability to get into good graduate programs - is also equally valid, and I think that a study should be called to look at that question. I can say that anecdotally speaking, the guys I know who went to Berkeley who wound up at elite graduate schools like MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, Harvard, etc. were all freshman-admits, whereas the transfer students who went to graduate school wound up at places like UCDavis, UCSC, and places like that. Generally, it was a lower caliber of graduate school. Now, don’t get me wrong, I am absolutely sure that there are some freshman-admits who wound up in mediocre graduate schools, and some transfer students who wound up in elite graduate schools. The real question is the proportions of each. Hence, another study is called for to look into that. </p>
<p>Like you said, if there is no demonstrable gap, then I would tend to agree with you. So surely you must support my idea of investigating whether there really is a gap or not.</p>
<p>And what West Sidee has just said is also part of the problem - that it is rather too easy (in fact, too easy) to get back in once you’re kicked out. I know plenty of people who got kicked out and then just take classes on Concurrent Enrollment and/or Berkeley Summer Session to get back in. I know one guy who got kicked out, got back in, and then got kicked out again, and is still ‘trying’ to get back in. However, I don’t know if the word ‘trying’ is entirely applicable because he’s still doing the same thing that he did to get himself kicked out in the first place - basically sitting around all the time, never going to class, never doing anything, just hanging out every day. </p>
<p>The problem with Berkeley’s “comeback policy” is that it strongly introduces the moral hazard problem. People realize that if they get kicked out, they can still get back in, and so they don’t really care if they get kicked out.</p>
<p>^ Sakky. Having easy classes like at ivies with inflated GPA’s also presents a moral hazard. I’m for giving a second chance. There are plenty of students who did come back with a second chance and did well. In the end its the student who decides not to try hard that suffers. They hurt no one but themselves. Why shouldn’t they get the chance to try again?</p>
<p>And once again you bring up the Ivies. What kind of a defense is that? That’s like Scott Peterson saying that since other people murder their wives, he should be allowed to do it too. As I’ve been saying, when it comes to fixing your problems, who cares whether other schools aren’t fixing theirs? If Berkeley fixes its problems and other schools don’t, then Berkeley will be better off than those other schools. </p>
<p>And you say that these people are hurting no one but themselves. Oh, I strongly beg to differ. Remember the strong social impact of education. When you see people lounging around, playing video games and drinking all day long, and never going to class, never studying, and never doing anything, you tend to want to do the same. These people are not just hurting themselves. They are also setting bad examples for everybody else by tempting others to adopt their lazy lifestyles. That is the real crime here. </p>
<p>They’re also sullying the reputation of Berkeley, and that is a problem. These people go around saying that they’re Berkeley students, and hence make all Berkeley students look bad. For example, consider that guy that I talked to. Somebody actually once came up and asked me whether he really went to Berkeley, because the fact is, that guy was conspicuously lazy and irresponsible, so much so that he doubted whether he really was a Berkeley student. I had to say ‘Yes, in fact, he is a Berkeley student’ (this was just before he got kicked out, so he still had student status. Then his exact words to me were “I thought Berkeley was supposed to be a good school.” That’s a problem. These guys make the school look bad. People see guys like that and they start thinking that Berkeley must be full of lazy people. That’s why Berkeley would be better off not having anything to do with these people.</p>
<p>As to the transfer-student discussion:
I know a some people who got dual-admission to ucs. They go to a cc, and then are guaranteed to go to that uc. Berkeley had Fresh Start a few years ago, similar to dual admission. However, many of the students may have just scraped by with an A or a B, or take those easy courses. They aren’t subjected to the academic rigor of those “weeder” courses.
My aunt attended Berkeley, and her first grades were mainly Cs and Ds, with maybe a B. She had to work harder to not flunk out of college, because she didn’t take those “fluff” courses/majors. The courses got easier for her when she became an upperclassman. She’s seen some of her friends flunk out because they were “weeded out” in her first two years. The repercussions of the bad grades in her lower-division courses was that she wasn’t accepted to some of the med schools she wanted to go to… but that leads into the whole discussion of going to “easy” colleges and then a top-tier grad school… the whole system has its faults, but one shouldn’t go overboard with correcting them… most actions have backlashes…</p>
<p>and towards the people who are lazy:
I can totally vouch for this- over the summer, my roommates had a huge impact on whether I studied or even went to class. The environment that you surround yourself with is huge. Some may claim that you shouldn’t hang out with them, or what not. It takes a long time to realize how people affect you. Once you’ve flunked out of a class or two, it’s kind of hard to go back in time and study instead of doing nothing. </p>
<p>Sakky has good ideas- every program has its faults… reality usually gets in the way. Berkeley does have the potential to be better than it is now… there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be.</p>