Savannah Dietrich case

Parent Cafe
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<p>Are you serious, ^ that is what you would teach your son? Stay out of situations like these? Will you need to specify each type of situation explicitly? How about teaching your son how to act like a human being and think with his “big” brain? How about letting him know that it is not OK, under ANY circumstances to rape a girl. How about letting him know that trying to be popular and impress your friends can cost you your integrity. How about teaching him to look out for others that are incapable of looking out for themselves. Your advice is do not drink? So sad.</p>

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<p>limabeans01–</p>

<p>Yes, as an alcoholic in 28+ years of recovery, my strong suggestion to my son is and always has been not to drink, especially in sexual situations.</p>

<p>Alcohol does not excuse either the male or female’s situational responsibility. Ask a recovering alcoholic female. If she is in long term recovery, she will accept some responsibility for the morning after “what I did or was done to me while drunk” so that she will change her behavior. IMO it is not just true for actual alcoholics.</p>

<p>BTW– I did explain lots of situations. </p>

<p>We discussed the “sex as barter” situation where “if you love me, you’d have sex with me” and the “I’ve had sex with you, so you love me, right!?!” come into play. I mentioned that suggesting that having sex was proof of love or having sex to be popular or to have someone become in love with you was a huge mistake for teenagers. We discussed the difference between love and lust and how including sexual acts in a relationship of friendship/love forever changes that relationship.</p>

<p>I also suggested that if either one or both of the partners has to be drinking/drunk to consider sex at any age, that is not a compliment to either. I noted that getting drunk is a process of getting past inhibitors that may stand in the way of doing thinks you really do not believe you want to or should be doing and that applied to males and females of all ages.</p>

<p>Because my son was of the age when “Girls Gone Wild,” hooking up and sexting by females was “the topic,” I pointed out that while this might look like a showing that females were empowered and could behave just like some men, the law and a chunk of society operated on a different set of views. We discussed that under the law a female, even a prostitute, can say “no” mid-act and after payment and it still is “rape.” </p>

<p>We discussed that there is still approbation by some when sexual activities by a female come out. I suggested if he doubted that statement to ask his mother what her mother (his grandmother) would have to say on the issue. And, I pointed out that it came with risks. We discussed several events where there had been accusations of non-consensual sex that had turned out to be bogus but only after involvement in the criminal justice system. I stressed that if something gets out and the female decides to characterize what happened as non-consensual, even if not true, there is a huge price to pay (in money and reputation) to get that established and that many people assume the female is the victim no matter what her conduct.</p>

<p>We also discussed that drunk people have a way of splattering those around them. I related that I had been in a situation the year he was born (I was 38) where a buddy and I were in Peru. We had been asked by the guide of a tour group made up of 12 early 20 year olds from upstate NY and Canada to join them for dinner. The restaurant had a bar/dance floor and after dinner the group stayed for that. Since the tour had that night as a “night on your own” and the guide had to get back to the hotel to make the arrangements for an early departure the next morning, she left. An hour or so later, the kids we were talking with started to leave. A couple of the girls tried to get one girl to go back to the hotel since she would be left alone if she stayed. Well, this girl was drunk, the local males in the bar/dance floor were getting her drinks and dancing with her and she refused to leave. My buddy and I stayed a little while longer because the band/music was great. Well, once the tour group was gone, the males turned it up on the girl dancing, rubbing --you get the picture and she was loopy and “responding” but was clearly unaware of where this was going.</p>

<p>My buddy and I agreed that this was getting out of hand. We saw some of the guys starting to suggest that she leave with them and she seemed confused. I asked my buddy if he’d at least back me up if I walked over into this group and tried to get her to leave. He said yep (small help since he’d had a few). I walked over into the group got right next to her ear and told her what was likely to happen to her (in detail) if she did not leave now with us so that we could get her to her hotel since her group was gone. Somehow this sunk in, she agreed, but we got into a fight with two of the local males to get her out. She then proceeded to throw up when we were in the cab. Nice.</p>

<p>I guess I should have just stayed out of it. If anything happened to her, she or her relatives could make a strong case she was a victim in the rape/murder trial. Nah. I’d still step in, but I’d appreciate it if parents of females would stop with the message that girls have no situational responsibility. And, I had to throw away the pants she vomited on since my buddy and I left early the next day for Bolivia.</p>

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<p>I bought Until Proven Innocent and had my son and daughter read it.</p>

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<p>Thanks for elaborating, 07DAD. And thanks for saving that young woman.</p>

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<p>I concur. That’s why even in my teens I did not like to get drunk because I like to be able to control what I do and say and what others do to me.<br>
07Dad, thanks for being a good Samaritan. I hope my D doesn’t find herself in the situation you cited but it’s nice to know there are men like you who are willing to step in and help. </p>

<p>Post #287

Perhaps, schools should start this in high school.</p>

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<p>^ but that is not what you said in the post I referred to.

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<p>Your post implies that boys should avoid “these situations” not because they ARE bad but because they could go bad. “Even is she has done this stuff before’” what are you saying? Last time she was violated when she was passed out it was no big deal but you never know, this time could be different so watch out.</p>

<p>I agree that sex and alcohol are not a good combination BUT… even in the drunkest moments, I don’t know anyone who would think undressing a passed out girl, penetrating her vagina with their fingers, photographing it and then sharing those photos it just a matter of bad decision making. Drunk people don’t do things like that if, at some deeper level, they know it is NEVER ok.</p>

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<p>07DAD,</p>

<p>There seems to be a lot missing in your post. You talk about girls gone wild, and never mentioned if your son disseminated pictures of underage girls he could be in serious trouble. Of course, like Frey and Zehnder, you may think you could get him a lawyer that would get him out with 50 hours of community service.</p>

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<p>07DAD, some people will never admit that they misjudged you based on limited data.</p>

<p>The lynch mob swings into action…</p>

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<p>Consolation – I do not admit that I misjudged 07DAD. I judged him as someone who thinks women must be blamed more for lapses in judgement. To post that on the Savannah thread is at best tasteless, where at least one of Frey/Zehnder disseminated child pornography while sober.</p>

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<p>I suggest you reread what he posted.</p>

<p>He does not blame anyone MORE for lapses in judgement.</p>

<p>I think I have made it clear that I think the behavior of Frey and Zehnder was not something that would have ever crossed the mind of a decent person, drunk or sober. To me, what is important is what they did, physically, to Savannah, and what they did afterwards in showing the photos to others. They violated and humiliated a young woman. I think that recasting their disgusting actions as “disseminating child pornography,” as if that is worse than what they actually did, is nonsense.</p>

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<p>Consolation how can you not see that showing the pictures may in fact be worse than the original crime? Every time someone sees those pictures she is violated again. Instead of a one-time -thing, it could be thousands of times. There is a lot more to what happened to Savanah than just the original crime. In fact, it doesn’t seem ( by her reaction) that the original crime was as hurtful as the aftermath----potentially thousands of people “watching” her being violated for their personal pleasure.</p>

<p>I am just shocked at people that are unable to look at this situation from Savanah’s perspective. Your comments are shocking. Maybe it’s a generational thing.</p>

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<p>lima, I think you’re misunderstanding what Consolation is saying, which is that raping a young woman and then showing around pictures of the rape is even WORSE than disseminating child pornography.</p>

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<p>I guess I read it wrong as well. I feel so bad for the victim for being violated twice. But while the rape/assault charge is difficult to prosecute with a he said/she said dilemma, disseminating child pornography can be prosecuted at either a state or federal level. It is also easier to track with phone records.</p>

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<p>I googled this story and was greatly disappointed with the number of articles that started out with something like: “SD did as most youths do at some point, pass out at a party . . .” Well, if alcohol consumption by underage kids to the point of passing out is hardly worthy of comment, I wonder if society has given up on one contributing factor to the list of horrible outcomes from misuse of alcohol.</p>

<p>Does anyone think that if there had been no alcohol consumed by these kids, this would have still happened? I don’t.</p>

<p>I have seen that the story that still gets some traction about alcohol is when the authorities charge the adult who provided the party location and/or the booze and/or did not stop the booze. Often the quotes and tenor of the story is “gee, kids are going to drink…” Sad.</p>

<p>If the common goal of parents is to have all kids avoid serious bad judgment (whether it rises to the level of criminal conduct or not), start by looking at the permissive attitude towards illegal underage drinking.</p>

<p>I believe that all parenting should include blunt discussions on all topics and not just with the boys or just with the girls. I get tickled that we have no problem teaching defensive driving, but on a lot of other topics not so much. Just like the goal is to avoid car accidents (even if there are laws to make the responsible party pay) through defensive driving, I think there should be “defensive living” to avoid situations even if there are laws that apply to those situations.</p>

<p>I think one lesson in defensive living is a frank discussion of impaired judgment from drinking. Both sexes and as it applies to all situations. I talked to my son about how alcohol makes things that are clearly risky and even criminal look like “no biggie.” Alcohol goggles. And, we specifically talked about sex and consent. If I had a daughter I’d have the same conversation.</p>

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<p>At this point, I am shocked by YOUR apparent inability to read.</p>

<p>I have made it repeatedly clear that I think that showing the pictures around was absolutely horrendous. OF COURSE it humiliated her, OF COURSE there was no excuse for it! What kind of an idiot do you think I am? How many times does a person have to say it? </p>

<p>My point was not that it was less bad than the initial assault, but that LABELING IT CHILD PORNOGRAPHY and acting as if CHILD PORNOGRAPHY was their “real” crime is STUPID.</p>

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<p>Yes, thank you.</p>

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<p>Yup - that’s called parenting. I’d add financial responsibility, raising kids, and evaluating friends. The thread with the daughter’s boyfriend drinking a lot is an example. I asked my daughter about her views on boyfriends (or friends in general) and drinking and she gave me the response that I was looking for.</p>

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<p>When it comes to those kinds of conversations, “defensive living,” conversations, my kids can quote me and do have a tendency to roll their eyes. When they were younger, there were long and indepth and reasoned conversations with why’s and wherefores, and even role playing to demonstrate they actually knew how to get out of sticky situations, etc…</p>

<p>Now, with them being as old as they are, it’s more of a kind of jokey short-hand which I never miss a chance to restate, if the subject of drugs, alcohol, sex, money, love, relationships, etc., comes up in any relatively related or unrelated way.</p>

<p>For a long time, I thought maybe the whole rote way they parrotted me as a “joke” was bad, until I overheard them, from time to time, simply stating, as fact, “You dn’t put down your drink at a party. You don’t go with some guy to a dorm room. You don’t go without a friend and you don’t leave a drunk friend ANYWhere. Somebody has to stay sober. It might as well be you.”</p>

<p>Not all at once, just in terms of relativistic conversations.</p>

<p>So, I advocate early and often. As I always said to my girls, “It’s not that I don’t trust you, it’s just that I don’t trust the rest of the world.”</p>

<p>I think, for boys, I would add a criminal sexual behavior conversation, as well. Just because I am sensing that they lack some clarity around this, and while no amount of change will change the fact that women are victims of sexual attack more than men, no amount of change will change the fact that men will be seen as the perpetrators. You can argue injustice all you want and it will be met with plenty of demonstrations of injustices the other side has endured. It is what it is. </p>

<p>“Best to only have sexual intimacy with those with whom you feel truly intimate, emotionally.” This goes just as well for boys as for girls. I think my daughters “got” that one too. I hope.</p>

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<p>^^Excellent post, poetgrl.</p>

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<p>BC, I think that most colleges give required alchohol/substance courses (online, I think), that do emphasize that sexual abuse is more likely to happen when someone has been drinking. The courses my daughter was required to take did. (plural, she has transferred). BUT, these courses clearly said that drinking is not an excuse for sexual abuse.</p>

<p>What I find offensive about 07Dad is how he seems to want to put all the problems on girls. He comes up with some crazy justification as to why Frey and Zehnder could NOT delete the pictures they took (althought I think one did) of them taking advantage of a semi-conscious girl. He links “Girls Gone Wild” with girls looking for empowerment, not some guy trying to make money off of people making mistakes. He focuses on girls making bad decisions while drunk, not about boys taking advantage of them.</p>

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<p>College is way too late though.</p>

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<p>Some guys like to argue details in the absence of the larger picture.</p>