<p>kayf --is it safe to say you also agree that without alcohol none of this would have happened?</p>
<p>07DAD,</p>
<p>I think that the better answer is more enforcement of laws re sexual assault. I think the continued emphasis here on what the victim may have done wrong is disgusting and shows the need for more enforcement of sexual assault laws. </p>
<p>Like I said, the penalty for underage drinking should not be rape. And at least one of the boys refused to get rid of the pictures even when he was sober.</p>
<p>Let’s do a sample of 1000 College Confidential teens and see what the results are. It would be a more representative sample of the US geographically, but it would still be a lousy study and not a representative sample of US teens.</p>
<p>The Utah study’s sample (post 439) is from one high school and only 606 students:</p>
<p>“A total of 606 students (328 males, 278 females)
elected to participate, representing 78% of all the students
attending the school and over 98% of the school’s students
available to participate”</p>
<p>Again, hardly a true representative sample.</p>
<p>Whether they are representative samples nationally or not, I find the results of those studies appalling. And they do represent large samples for their areas. ONLY 606 students??? That’s a lot! (Although I assume it is likely that a certain percentage of them were lying in an attempt to be cool and daring.)</p>
<p>And I agree with 07DAD: if huge amounts of alcohol had not been involved, I strongly doubt that the whole thing would have happened. And I am NOT talking only about SD’s consumption and I am NOT blaming her and I am NOT excusing Frey and Zehnder and I am NOT discounting the fact that Frey, at least, chose to show the pictures to others after he sobered up. (At this point I am unclear about how they were shown and by whom. I haven’t read anything authoritative about it.)</p>
<p>Regarding the sexting phenomenon, it does possibly explain one thing to me: why it may have even crossed the minds of F&Z to do what they did and take pictures in the first place. Something that I have found mystifying. NOT that SD had sexted, or that it was any excuse for them even if she had, but simply that sexting may have been part of their world, whereas it would literally never occur to me, for example. (And yeah, THAT may be generational! 
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<p>When you say you “doubt this study’s veracity,” are you saying you doubt that what the students reported about their behavior is true or that you doubt that the researchers accurately reported the facts they acquired during the research? The researchers (based on Texas) used a sample that was available to them. That does not make the results wrong or the research faulty. Your comment suggesting the study was not “a proper statistical study” seems a bit hasty, unless you have done a close review of the study design. Can we agree, though, that the editors of the Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine likely did? (That’s kinda how they roll at peer-reviewed journals 'cause their credibility depends on them not publishing crap.) Here is the link to the article: [JAMA</a> Network | Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine | Teen Sexting and Its Association With Sexual BehaviorsTeen Sexting and Sexual Behaviors](<a href=“http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1212181]JAMA”>http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1212181). (It’s possible I may have fuller access because I work at a .edu that subscribes to JAMA online.)</p>
<p>The bigger point lost in the quibbling over actual numbers is that this is a public health issue for people who deal with adolescents. To wit, the conclusion of the authors in aforementioned article: </p>
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<p>Sending pictures of teens involved in sexual activity should not only a teen sex issue, it is or should be a LEGAL issue. All the discussion re teens should be encouraged not to do this or that should be accompanied by a warning as to what is illegal. And we should back it by demanding enforcement.</p>
<p>^^^Who here is arguing against enforcement of relevant laws?</p>
<p>I am so disappointed by what has happened in this thread.</p>
<p>First, I think that it is self-evident that if either of the two boys knew that Savannah had previously sexted lewd photos of herself to anyone he would have said so when interviewed by the police. So, I personally find 07Dad’s speculation about that absurd and offensive. If 07Dad wants to start a thread about teenage sexting, feel free to do so, but those comments do NOT belong in this thread. </p>
<p>Second, I can’t believe that there are women in this thread who are defending this statement by 07Dad:</p>
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<p>07Dad, if you know of any 16 year old girl–or grown woman for that matter–who likes to have males fondle her while she is passed out, please get her psychiatric help. That is not normal human behavior. Yes, there are teenage females who want to have consensual sex and get somewhat inebriated so that they can blame their conduct on the fact they were inebriated. I loathe such conduct, but I admit that it exists. Having sex while “tipsy,” is not the same as being molested when passed out. I doubt that even a prostitute would be “ok with” being molested while unconscious. </p>
<p>In this case, one of the boys said it was the third time he had been to Savannah’s home to drink. Lets assume that’s a truthful statement. Again, if Savannah had voluntarily engaged in sexual activity on either of the two previous occasions, he would have said so to the police. Please understand that even if Savannah had sex with someone during the prior two “parties” that doesn’t constitute consent to being molested and passed out and does NOT constitute consent to be photographed nude. But since the boys seem to have values as distorted as those of 07Dad, I am sure that they would have mentioned the fact that she had previously engaged in sexual conduct with them in their defense if she had done such things. </p>
<p>Third, my dad used to have a saying about converts being zealots. 07Dad, you’re an alcoholic in recovery. You’re right that alcohol causes problems. But you’re looking through life through your particular lens. We all do that–but yours is that of an alcoholic in recovery. Lots of young women get raped when they drink too much because they are vulnerable. The men who rape them are usually not drunk. They are men who would take advantage of a chance to rape a vulnerable female even when they were stone cold sober. They use being inebriated as an excuse.</p>
<p>Do both men and women sometimes agree to sex they would not have otherwise had while wearing “beer goggles?” Yes, they do. But again, that’s not the same as undressing someone who is comatose and doing things to her body without consent. Don’t make this case into “date sexual molestation.” That’s not what this is about.</p>
<p>I confess to being a zealot against a permissive attitude against illegal and dangerous underage drinking, by males and females.</p>
<p>I’m all in favor of enforcing laws. Let’s just enforce all the laws not just those that might seem to protect someone after they got drunk. I bet if you asked SD she’d tell you that she’d trade drinking that night if she could go back and have a “do over.” </p>
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<p><a href=“http://www.udetc.org/factsheets/KY.pdf[/url]”>http://www.udetc.org/factsheets/KY.pdf</a></p>
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<p>[Underage</a> drinking laws reduce future criminal behavior](<a href=“http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120223183825.htm]Underage”>Underage drinking laws reduce future criminal behavior | ScienceDaily)</p>
<p>Thank you Jonri.</p>
<p>Yes, I am REPULSED by the attitude that the main issue here is not sexual assault/pornogaphy.</p>
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kayf, I’m really beginning to wonder if you’re ■■■■■■■■ this thread. If you’re not, you really need to read other people’s posts a lot more carefully.</p>
<p>Hunt, if you look at the amount of characters/paragraphs that some people are posting, it is more about alchohol/how women dress/lack of civil liability of parents/you name it - how women are to blame. </p>
<p>Some people. Not all.</p>
<p>07Dad, again, IMO, you’re being incredibly offensive by sticking your agenda into a thread where it just doesn’t belong. Yes, I’m sure Savannah would love a “do over.” That’s not the same as saying that because Savannah was drunk she was “ok with” what happened to her. </p>
<p>Get off this thread, please, and go start your own thread on the evils of booze.By inserting your agenda in THIS thread, you’re blaming the victim. It’s offensive. VERY offensive.</p>
<p>Nobody is denying that it’s a good idea for anyone to drink herself into a stupor. Nobody is arguing that being drunk leads people to do stupid things. But, I’ve never seen a statistic which says that there’s some high correlation between an alcoholic and being a rapist.</p>
<p>NOBODY posted anything about how women are to blame. That’s what I mean about needed to read the posts more carefully.</p>
<p>I really don’t care for posts questioning others’ decency, values, etc., rather than attempting to have a civil conversation.</p>
<p>Hunt, I do not appreciate people trying to take over a thread about sexual abuse/reporting etc and make it into other things. There were pages of posts about those other things, women being responsible etc. Yes, when people say of course women can dress how they want, and they are not responsible blah blah blah, BUT it is a hot potato or its tricky, they are passive-aggressively, underhandedly, whatever, suppoting those views. It is not a hot potatoe. Its not tricky. What Frey and Zehnder did was wrong. They deserve more than 50 hours of community service. Savannah was very brave.</p>
<p>
By your post count, I would assume that you are familiar with discussions like this, which often address multiple topics. This is page 31 of the thread. If you can’t keep up, then you should consider dropping out of the discussion yourself. The points about punishment were made early in the thread and were agreed with, including by me.</p>
<p>I think it pretty much goes without saying that the initial assault probably would not have taken place had alcohol not been a factor. In that sense, the whole thing could serve as a cautionary tale to both males and females, both of age and underage, about the dangers of excessive alcohol consumption.</p>
<p>As it relates to this case, however, the discussion after the fact about the poor decision to consume alcohol is not really very relevant to the issue of whether or not the boys were not treated appropriately by the justice system. Alcohol consumption is not and has never been a plausible excuse for breaking the law, which the boys clearly did. I don’t recall reading that the boys were charged with minor consumption of alcohol, yet the point has been made repeatedly that SD should have been charged in the interest of “legal fairness.” These same posters have neglected to call for similar charges against the boys, which naturally leads me to question the sincerity of their desire to see that true justice is done.</p>
<p>Secondly, the alcohol issue is completely moot with respect to the actions which took place in the days after the party. These actions are indefensible and cannot be mitigated by claims that sexting is common and/or part of the teen mindset. The boys’ behavior both during and after the party is absolutely despicable whether fueled by alcohol or complete lack of character, conscience, empathy, and integrity.</p>
<p>Hunt,</p>
<p>IMO, suggesting that I can’t read well is uncivil. It’s just plain rude. So, please do not give me any lessons in civility. </p>
<p>My reading skills are just fine. 07Dad posted that if Savannah invited the boys to her home and brought the booze than that’s evidence that the boy who thought she was “ok with” what happened to her was right. </p>
<p>If you don’t think that constitutes blaming the victim, then I think you have not read the post carefully.</p>
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If you don’t like rudeness, then I suggest you avoid referred to other posters as having distorted values, etc. It drags the discussion into the mud. I was mainly addressing kayf in terms of not reading other poster’s comments carefully, but I don’t think you’ve been fair, either.</p>
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<p>Hunt, your post are clear to me and pretty logical. It is not a matter that several posters are not reading posts carefully, they are so anxious to express outrage about this case that they create fictitious interpretations of other’s posts so they can make personal attacks on those posters. They are female cyber bullies. I am sort of surprised that 07Dad has not responded to so many personal attacks against him. People do not have to agree with his opinions but he does not have to be called names - but then again that is what bullies do.</p>