<p>“It’s pretty simple, really. No means No”</p>
<p>"what about cases where the girl is so inebriated, she is not passed out but did not say no? "</p>
<p>She never said no. there was intent to have have sex but at some point she did not but too impaired.</p>
<p>what is the case law?</p>
<p>texaspg. You ask about the case where a woman goes to a man’s apartment. They drink. She becomes very drunk. She does not consent to sex, but she does not say no. He penetrates her anyway.</p>
<p>Is that rape? Yes, of course, she didn’t consent. Is he exercising power over her? Yes, clearly. He might as well be using a party doll. He is forcing someone who didn’t consent to it to be his rape plaything. “Never said no,” is not the rule. </p>
<p>I don’t understand why you would imagine that consenting to sex is any different than consenting to other things. You have to consent in order to consent. Yes means Yes.</p>
<p>I don’t understand, in your example, where the “there was intent to have have sex” part came from. Nothing in your description demonstrates to me that this woman consented to sex at any time during the scenario.</p>
<p>texaspg, I was talking in general, but in Dietrich’s case, she was too impaired to give consent. And that also means No.</p>
<p>Who wants to think about this a different way?</p>
<p>Two college “men” are at a party and have a lot to drink. One invites the other back to his room to listen to music. Has the guest consented to sex? Or to the idea that there may be sexual advances? Should he be “on guard”? Is this risky behavior?</p>
<p>^^ It depends. What is he wearing?</p>
<p>If you need an example of a “power” rape, we had the nastiest example here this week.
.
A couple of weeks ago, a female bird watcher in her 70s saw a man exposing himself in Central Park right next to Strawberry Fields. Rather than reacting by shrinking in horror, she snapped a cell photo of him and bawled him out.</p>
<p>She says that a week later when she entered the park, the same man grabbed her and said “Hi, remember me?” He robbed and raped her and beat her up her. She’s 73 years old. He has been arrested. He’s a homeless man in his early 50s. He has previous arrests and 1-2 convictions for sexual assault. He was acquitted at trial of a murder and sexual assault. </p>
<p>This is a clear cut case of rape for the sake of exerting power over the victim.</p>
<p>Rape is often a form of revenge. At the end of a war, the occupying troops often engage in rape of the conquered population. (Two Women is a very good movie about this. )This is one of the reasons that Marshall insisted that nobody who fought the Japanese could serve in the occupation forces in Japan.</p>
<p>LasMa - What happened to this girl was brutal and it is shameful and it shocks me that the boys are not going to jail.</p>
<p>I see a lot of people venting about the judge, the prosecutor, and defence lawyer. Ultimately, the question comes down to why they were able to get off and what the case law is that got the prosecutor to accept such a lenient plea.</p>
<p>I hear a lot of No means No, not saying yes means no and so on. My next question is who is going to jail when they break this rule of no means no and how many spend anytime in jail?</p>
<p>In the end, who is getting prosecuted, what kind of jail terms are they getting and how colleges are covering up problems and not addressing them is what matters to me.</p>
<p>It bothers me, too, that these boys and many others aren’t given harsh sentences, or in many cases, not even found guilty. What some of us are saying is that this situation exists because a lot of people, some of them judges and prosecutors, still subscribe to the myth that a woman is “asking for it” by dressing a certain way, or believe that assaulting a passed-out girl simply because she didn’t pronounce the syllable “No” is only worthy of a slap on the wrist. </p>
<p>And I find it shocking and discouraging that, in the year 2012, this is still being debated.</p>
<p>This is why I will be very dissappointed in Obama if federal charges are not brought. When southern courts would not enforce laws to protect blacks, years ago, federal courts brought charges. Now, when a court allows well off boys to sexually assault girls, and get sentenced to 50 hours of community service, any and all federal charges should be brought.</p>
<p>I think there is a difference between punishment by a court and the consequences for one’s actions. In this case, many people might question the lack of jail time by the court. The consequences to the boys are much greater than just the punishment. They have been removed from their school. Their college options have decreased dramatically. They have created tremendous stress for their parents. They have suffered widespread condemnation. It would not surprise me if 20 years from now their friends will recognize them and immediately associate them with their behavior as teenagers. It seems like justice is not determined only by a court’s actions but also by public response to criminal behavior.</p>
<p>Razor, had they been sentenced to say 6 months in juvi, this would not have gone viral, with worldwide publicity. If you say that removal from private school, and college options changed is acceptable in terms of punishment, then you have different justice systems for the rich v. the poor. Should the poor black kid not headed to college get a year in juvi while Frey and Zehnder go to the prom and play lacrosse? And btw, had Savannah NOT gone public, it seems that they would not have been thrown out of school, and not had their college options impacted.</p>
<p>What happened the next time – if the girl does not go public? And all the boys get is 50 hours of community service? Where is the deterent?</p>
<p>^^ there is still no recognizable deterrent for future offenders. Some people need to be put away for a while or else this just keeps going on.</p>
<p>Tex, I think the problem is that women are no longer willing to accept that they are second class citizens. Back in the day, mothers warned their girls to not dress too provocatively, not to go in boys rooms, be careful not to get drunk, etc… Because women were blamed for men’s bad behavior. Only the most aggregious forms of rape were considered “true rape”.</p>
<p>It seems many men were taught that girls of a “certain type” we’re asking for it. Maybe they were told to stay away but the fact remains, they learned the girl was somehow responsible for whatever happened to her. Like inviting boys over, providing alcohol, and getting drunk. They somehow have learned that this behavior implies consent.</p>
<p>Women are no longer willing to be blamed. Women are standing up for their rights. The tide is changing and parents need to teach their children a new message. I think the message for girls is to not put yourself in a situation were an unscrupulous boy may take advantage of you. The message is not that all boys WILL take advantage of you.</p>
<p>For boys the message is that a girl never “deserves” to be treated poorly by them. That If they are in a position of power (most often due to shear size) over a girl, they have a responsibility to make sure they don’t abuse that power. That sex is not something to be taken lightly and sharing stories a about “nasty” girls is inappropriate (not expected).</p>
<p>The confusion seems to be from the “old guard” who we’re not taught properly and then insist on passing that down to their sons. I guess they can stick their heads in the sand and learn their lessons the hard way. Savannah will not be the last to come forward.</p>
<p>As I’ve mentioned on other threads, one big problem in the situation of an accusation of non-consensual sex in the college setting is that consensual sex happens a lot, and may not look factually that much different from non-consensual sex. It’s a proof problem. This is quite different from a lot of other crimes. (Bike thieves can rarely make a plausible argument that the victim gave them the bike.)</p>
<p>What concerns me the most as a parent is not so much the possibility that a girl will be raped after saying “no,” or even that she will be raped in a situation where she’s too drunk to say yes or no. I’m concerned about situations where she might be drunk enough to say “yes” when she would have said “no” if she were sober. My suspicion is that this happens quite often.</p>
<p>I don’t think that frat boys are necessarily any worse than any other boys. My concern there is more about the physical environment of the alcohol-drenched party–in a house with no adult supervision and a lot of small bedrooms.</p>
<p>Hunt, there were no proof issues in this case. </p>
<p>I am concerned that things like the Frey/Zehnder sentencing are basically a license to assault women.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>My guess is that if this were something most young women were calling rape then there would be a heck of a lot more rapes reported. Young women know the difference between consenting to something they might not consent to sober and non consensual sex. I suspect the number of girls who slept with a guy they might not have in the cold light of day is pretty large. I doubt they call it rape.</p>
<p>For my part, when a woman says she was forced, I tend to believe her. It’s an incredibly humiliating experience to report this particular crime. It is one of the worst types of reporting there is, and many women don’t come forward simply because they have friends who have been through this. The rape kit alone is tough to bear. The questions. All of it. it’s not an “easy” crime to report. You don’t go in the way you do in the case of a mugging or robbery. It’s very intrusive. </p>
<p>So, those who worry about this particular issue tend, imho, to be worrying about the wrong thing.</p>
<p>Alh-- I have known men who have been raped and beaten up, and I can say that if I had a particularly beautiful young son, I would warn him of the possibility, personally, just as if I had a son, I would warn him of stranger danger as a young boy. I don’t think this is a strictly woman’s issue, personally.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I am not convinced that every instance of rape is about power rather than lust. If a male and female are at a college party and are drinking and the woman drinks so much she is intoxicated, she lacks the legal capacity to consent. The man drinks so much that his judgment is impaired. He asks the woman to have sex. She says yes, but she lacks the capacity to say yes. He lacks the judgment to recognize that she lacks the capacity and has sex with her. He raped her but it was not about power or an attempt to humiliate her, it was about lust.</p>
<p>poetgrl: I don’t think it is strictly a woman’s issue either. The possibility of sexual assault on males first became a concern to me on realizing one son is gay. Regardless of beauty, or lack there of, probably some males are at greater risk than others. I understand it was a joke to question what he was wearing, but sometimes what a male is wearing is seen as inviting unwelcome attention or attack. In my opinion this is all connected to what we as a society consider acceptable reactions to certain types of dress and/or personal presentation and sometimes seeing victims as provoking assault.</p>
<p>edit: Sorry that went so far off topic. I’m still thinking about how we parent and the different parenting views offered here.</p>
<p>edit: and it was a good joke imho because it points out some stereotypes.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And, my suspicion is that’s fairly uncommon. </p>
<p>I think most date rape situations involve two people who have been drinking. One, usually a male, initiates sexual activities. The other, who is quite drunk, does NOT say yes. She (sometimes he) just doesn’t say no.</p>
<p>If you need an illustration, Exhibit A is Austin Zehnder. He told the cop Savannah was “okay with” what they did to her. If she had said no or tried to stop them, they would have stopped. She didn’t do that, so, he concluded she “was okay with” it. </p>
<p>I don’t think Zehnder’s attitude is that uncommon. I think LOTS of young men think it’s the female’s role to put the brakes on and if she doesn’t do that, it’s “consent.” </p>
<p>I don’t think there are a heck of a lot of somewhat drunk boys lying on a bed with a somewhat drunk girl asking “Is it okay if I do X?” or “Do you want to have sex?” and getting yes answers before proceeding.</p>
<p>In the situations where the two people have actually been dating, one common pattern is to go beyond what’s happened before. Lets say there’s been what we used to call petting. It’s always stopped before actual intercourse. One night, the boy goes further. The girl doesn’t stop him. The escalation may happen so quickly that she really doesn’t get the chance to stop him. She’s upset. She claims rape. The boys says she didn’t say no. </p>
<p>That may be common. But actually asking the girl and getting a yes and then having the girl claim rape? I REALLY doubt that happens much at all.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think this is still actually a big issue in the gay community. One of the men I know who was assaulted was raped by a “straight” man. It was a really horrible crime. truly reeked of anger and power and punishment for whatever feelings of powerlessness the victim brought up in this offender. Sad for the victim who was afraid to report due to a fear of exposure. He was out, but also a public figure and wasn’t poster child out.</p>
<p>I know male rape is actually a huge problem in the military, and that there is such a stigma to reporting, that the victims just spend thier lives ashamed. Talk about PTSD.</p>