Scenario for Admissions Disappointment

Parents Forum
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<p>That’s an eminently fair comment. The simple fact is that Ivy League athletes mostly graduate from their schools, in the expected amount of time, and most go on to successful careers in the real world. They’re not stupid, even if they are not as intellectually oriented as almost everyone in my family. (I come from a family of nonathletes and it has taken YEARS of personal growth on my part to say something this nice about athletes.) </p>

<p>The basic problem with the blame game is that blame doesn’t advance your own character development. Whether the “other guy” who took your “deserved” place in college was a recruited athlete, a legacy, or an underrepresented ethnic minority applicant, the fact is that lots of applicants who don’t fit into any of those categories DO get into any famous school you could name. There is room at the top for your kind of people, but there is no sure formula for admission at the most selective schools for anybody, really. Casting a wider net earlier in the application process (which is the OP’s sage advise in this thread) makes for a better catch at the end of the process. Don’t blame the other fishermen for how you cast your net.</p>

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<p>Regarding Oxford. In England students can’t apply to more than six schools. When they get the results of the six, they then select two. One a safety and one a reach/match.</p>

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<p>My dog rings a bell when he wants to go outside, brings me his dish when he’s hungry, understands and responds to over 50 words (most in English but a few in Latin - LATIN!) and sends grandpa a birthday card every year. Surely he can manage a little multiple choice test. He’s decided to bypass the SAT and take the Aptitude of Canine Test instead. He’s skipping the essay as writing entire words with ‘pencils’ present a bit of difficulty.</p>

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<p>well, i’ll admit i didn’t read the entire thread, but i’ll add my experience to the sports v. academics debate.</p>

<p>I was rejected by Brown, as was another girl at my school. It was not terribly surprising-a little disappointing-but I am quite happy with the schools I got into. However (there’s always a however :)) Rumor has it that a very talented soccer player from my school was recruited and accepted. This hasn’t been completely confirmed but I’ve heard from a number of sources. He’s certainly smart enough to go to Brown, but the thing that makes me just a little bitter is that he has cheated, big time. He’s cheated plenty, which isn’t uncommon at our school, and gotten away with it, but he was caught and kicked out of AP Eng. after he stole another student’s project, ripped the cover off, and wrote his own name at the top. I’m assuming something like this would be reported to the college, especially since he was dropped from the class at semester. I just think it is an example of the extent to which athletes are given breaks over regular students and I feel that ignoring a major ethical break like that while rejecting so many honest, talented students is a little too far in making leeway for the time commitment athletics demands.</p>

<p>On the original post…I loved that story. I was a little different than the subject however, because I resisted telling people where I was applying. I also had safety schools, although my opinion about them went up and down and I wish I had applied to some more mid-range school. My dad was pretty confident about my chances, but that totally changed when we went on a Stanford (his alma mater) tour and he actually heard the numbers from the admissions people—he couldn’t blame them on me being pessimistic or exaggerating. </p>

<p>Anyways, when asked, I tended to say “Yeah, I applied to some of the ivies, but not really expecting to get in…” kind of thing and then listed off schools like Amherst and Tufts that people in California aren’t usually familiar with. I could see their interest waning and I was sometimes able to avoid actually saying “Harvard, Yale, Princeton”-where I eventually got rejected. It actually helped to get rejected early from Yale, when someone said 'oh, well you’re going to go to Yale or something" I could definitively tell them that I would NOT be attending Yale. :)</p>

<p>The less people you tell, prior to getting decisions, the better. These days, I really don’t mind saying I got rejected by HYP, I think it’s a reality check for people who aren’t focused on that sort of thing and just vaguely assume “she’s smart therefore she’s going to harvard”</p>

<p>Anyways, that’s my story. Time to stop procrastinating on my homework.</p>

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<p>cardinals fan</p>

<p>You actually broke the code here. THe “academically prestigious” universities in fact are prestigious because their graduates are successful and represented in all fields, not merely academics. In fact, that is why they don’t offer their spots based on the numbers. </p>

<p>Your situation is difficult to reconcile,I admit, but not entirely unique. My son had a lower GPA at a top school, 1500 + boards, comparable math and physics, national level programs in the performing arts, almost as many letters in three sports, all county recognition in football, and “batted” .500 in the admissions pattern that he chose.</p>

<p>The varsity letters can be misleading (to the recipients). If you can’t play at the collegiate level, they’re no different than singing in the chorus. I personally value them highly, but at the admissions offices, in fact, being an athlete who isn’t going to play for the school can be a negative, I think, since some of the adcoms have a bias against them and would love to throw athletics in the trash. If you’re not going to be a truly good one, you ought to start a Simpson’s club or something. Thats not a taunt, but a complaint that athletes aren’t valued even more highly in admissions. Its an area where you actually have to prove yourself in competition.</p>

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<p>Harvard and the other elite schools do not hide the fact that they have sports programs, musical ensembles, art exhibitions, etc. It should come as no surprise that they look to fill their classes with the best individuals to fit each of these niches. Kids value student traits and talents differently, but all have value. Many apps ask “What will you bring to our community?”. They are not looking for everyone to answer “my 4.0-1600”. Don’t apply these schools and then complain when the adcoms admit students they feel support and enhance their community. Remember, you liked the feel and fit of this community or you wouldn’t have applied. </p>

<p>There are schools without sports programs and intellectual diversity for those that are truly looking to attend with other students that are only academic in focus. Figure out what you really want in a school, and then go and find your fit-even if it’s not HYP.</p>

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<p>Yeah, you’d get 2000 interchangeable grade robots who never did anything their whole lives but study. Would that improve the educational experience at Harvard? I think not.</p>

<p>There is an international kid in my daughter’s dorm at Harvard who is studying to be the next Yo Yo Ma. He is a virtuoso on the cello. He is so good that he plays a $750,000 cello that is owned by his home country’s government. Sometimes when his roommmate is out he saves a trip to the practice rooms and plays in his room. The sound of his playing wafts up through the halls, and the rest of the stairwell falls silent to listen, because he plays so beautifully. Can you imagine a freshman dorm normally falling silent for ANY reason? It must be really wonderful to listen to him.</p>

<p>Now would Harvard be improved by keeping this kid out because he got “only” a 1500 instead of a 1560 and replacing him with another yet another grade grind?</p>

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<p>Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh,</p>

<p>A few months ago, I to was wondering how to answer the title of this post. But now, as I prepare to make a final decision, I realize that avoiding disapointment is exactly the wrong reason for changing your admissions plan. Here are my thoughts as I mull over rejections in my own head…</p>

<p>1.) Dissapointment is a sign of longing. When I was waitlisted at Brown, I felt little dissapointment except for the foreshadowing it showed for my as yet not recieved decisions. What I did realize in comparison to other rejections/waitlists is that Brown was not the school I wanted. Whenever you really want something, you run the risk of disappointment, BUT that is a sign of your love and longing.</p>

<p>2.) Disapointment can be one of the most powerful learning tools in existance. My rejection/waitlists, in a similar vein to an even early this year, let me discover who I wanted to be and the type of school that I wanted to go to.</p>

<p>So, let your disappointments become opportunities. It may be hard, but it is the right path.</p>

<p>For now, apply to EVERY school that you love, some that are safe, and prepare for whatever lies ahead. Sometimes what you can gain from dealing with a disapointment can be greater that what you lost. If this holds true with college admissions, then that reward must be great indeed.</p>

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<p>It is amazing how many people seem to believe that SAT scores are indications of academic success. I think if a kid could score over 1200 with a little work ethic they could survive and possibly thrive at a number of the best schools. I don’t think a 4.0 or above in high school is that reliable. We find safety in these numbers because we need some measurable standard to use. We also know that people are more than these things, that some students free of high school requirements can soar in the right school. It is just too hard to identify in a chart what these qualities are so we rely on easily reported numbers. What number scale do we use for maturity?</p>

<p>As for athletes, Some athletes have discipline beyond norm, but so do some artists and writers. It is unfair to label a person as unqualified simply because they are athletic. It is niave to think that colleges don’t make acceptances to improve their teams. Too many colleges prostitute their basketball and football players. It is no wonder that some student athletes skip graduation and go right into the pros (see the NYTimes on line article on public universites )</p>

<p>On the original subject. Finding an academic and financial safety school is the toughest and most important task for applicants. Ten match schools are not as valuable as one safety in the end.</p>

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<p>Hi, Nickleby! It’s nice to hear from you again. </p>

<p>I don’t know if a bit of pessimism/realism is the best way to handle the admissions process, but that is kind of what I did. Although my friends and other people at school were telling me that I would get into any school that I applied to, my guidance counselor made it clear that this was not the case. I told her the list of 10 colleges that I would be applying to, and she said very clearly that only one of those colleges (state U) was a true safety, and I couldn’t be guaranteed admission to any other college on my list, even to the second state university that I was applying to. I knew this, but I think that some kids really need to be told that. </p>

<p>Also, I kind of made the assumption that I wouldn’t get into most of the colleges that I applied to, and I made the point of doing an overnight stay at the 3rd least selective college on my list during fall of senior year and making sure I really liked it. (Couldn’t visit least 2 selective colleges because they were too far away.) I didn’t automatically assume that I would be choosing between my top two choices come April. Well, I ended up not having to go to the 3rd least selective school, but it’s still a good idea apply to some “easy” schools at start getting excited about them BEFORE you get rejected to other colleges. </p>

<p>Sorry if I’m repeating that other people have said before. It needs to be said again, though, that unless a college has 100% acceptance rate, admission is NOT guaranteed.</p>

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<p>well to allow for a bit of anecdotal evidence</p>

<p>in my hs we had two pton admits… one a uber-legacy athlete beauty queen etc etc etc
the other a recruited athlete because the only goalie they had for this particular team was graduatin</p>

<p>the only person to get in to Brown was someone who applied ED… very smart person but not that well rounded</p>

<p>the person to get in to Stanford was one of those “tutoring” types. While not necessarily intellectually motivated or smart, this person got just enough points to always barely make the grade.</p>

<p>what really annoys me is that the above stanford admit got in over a VERY VERY smart dedicated girl who is a legacy and has been playing a sport for 12 years. I cant believe that! Her rejection annoys me more than my rejection… lol</p>

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<p>This is not an indictment of college admissions policies but of your high school’s failure to deal adequately with ethical lapses. It has nothing to do with athletic recruiting. If the guy’s cheating is reported to the college, I’ll bet his admission will be rescinded presto.</p>

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<p>“He’s cheated plenty, which isn’t uncommon at our school, and gotten away with it,”</p>

<p>He has gotten away with it because students who knew about the cheating didn’t turn him in. By knowing about his cheating and ignoring the problem, they contributed to the situation that you now are complaining about.</p>

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<p>After reading these anecdotes about sub-par, cheating applicants getting into ivy league schools, I’m expecting to read a headline entitled something like “Stupid Person Accepted at Harvard: Coach Blamed”. Anyone who believes that dumb jocks are attending competitive schools en masse and bring nothing to the experience other than their inferior intellect and brute strength/skill should be relieved to have seen the emperor has no clothes and move on. No one ever said they were societies of pure intellect (as measured by test scores and GPA) and there are many, many other schools where you can find a comfortable intellectual niche.</p>

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<p>Quick comment on that “30% acceptance rate” at Oxford quoted above. It’s comparing apples and oranges to look at ivy and oxbridge acceptance rates because the system is so different. At the moment at D’s school, the Oxbridge tutors are carefully interviewing/reviewing/discussing to determine which candidates the school will put forward for either Oxford or Cambridge. In other words, a sixth former doesn’t just decide to go ahead and apply - I asked what would happen if someone decided to apply without the school’s support and an eyebrow was raised and I was given to understand that (1) that had never happened and (2) the outcome would not be a happy one. So those people applying to Oxford are already a very select group.</p>

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<p>I’m a little confused. A student/athlete has four years of eligibility to play, yet graduation rates are based on a 6-year period. So, what happens? Do they play for four straight years and then focus on academics the last two? Do they sit out some time and does that accrue, enabling them to actually play 6 seasons?</p>

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<p>Just went thru the process this year with my son. Feel we did a lot of things right that we want to share. First suggest that all parents meet alone with the GC … feel that it works better because you can be ‘brutally’ honest and so can the GC … I asked for specific data on our school’s successful admits to the schools my son was interested in … specifically … what were the GPAs, coursework, class rank, and test scores of those students that got in to … fill in the blank … last year?? … Really helped us all see what a “successful” applicant to those schools looked like??? </p>

<p>Also started the mantra early " You might be qualified but might not be selected" … very very important for them to consider … also make sure they only consider and apply schools that they WANT to go to … do NOT apply to ANY school you really don’t want to go … spend the time … up front … to make that list … visit them … talk to people … make sure that your son/daughter takes the time to make a list that they would be happy with … granted they might be “more” happy with some schools versus others … but want to avoid … "I only got it to these … but don’t really want to go there " … happened to a number of my son’s friends this year … very very unhappy kids. </p>

<p>Also cannot stress that I took the role of his ‘administrative ass’t" during the application process … we discussed that he would be very very busy with as Captain of Football team , all of his ECs, and tough classes the fall of his senior year … so could I do his ‘paperwork’ for him … got all his applications printed out … filled out all the “detail” data … like name, address, coursework, ss number, etc … that way all he needed to do was … the important stuff … the essays … no value added with him spending the time with all the “grunt” stuff … also printed out all the reccommendation forms, packaged them, and he delivered them to his selected teachers … and lastly arranged for all the test scores to be delivered as well … honestly taking the "paperwork’ burden away from them is a real way … you as a parent … can help. </p>

<p>Also make sure you get a copy of their transcript end of junior year and check for accuracy of classes, grades, as well as testing. Contact College Board and ask them to send a copy of all SAT2 and SATs to you … again test for accuracy … we had a scary moment when we discovered his Bio SAT2 from freshman year had DISAPPEARED from his record … seems that he put he was a sophomore (he thought he was supposed to put the grade he was entering on the registration form :(… College Board archives records after students graduate (that is what they did) and it took me numerous phone calls to a lot of different people before they could find it and tell me how I could get it ‘specially’ handled for delivery to the schools he was interested in … yikes!! </p>

<p>So prepare, visit schools, and help with actions not just advice … and be there for them … it really is the first big decision in their young lives and, unfortunately, a lot more pressure filled than when we were kids :)</p>

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<p>Dukemom - lots of good advice. One point I didn’t understand though:</p>

<p>"First suggest that all parents meet alone with the GC … feel that it works better because you can be ‘brutally’ honest and so can the GC … I asked for specific data on our school’s successful admits to the schools my son was interested in … specifically … what were the GPAs, coursework, class rank, and test scores of those students that got in to … "</p>

<p>Why shouldn’t the student hear the “brutally honest” assessment of chances? I think it is key for kids to hear this, and only fair - this is THEIR process. We had this conversation with parents, student and counselor in January of junior year - I think it was really helpful for my son to see the stats and chances and prior year’s results. In some ways it was a wake up call to my son - and I think it must have provided some motivation to him as he did super well second semester junior year.</p>

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<p>mcdeb- a number of athletes “red-shirt” for a year or a season. That means they do not compete- it may be due to injury or just to let them practice and mature in their sport so that they can compete later. Also, sometimes the athletes take a lighter load and it may take more than 4 years to graduate. I still see many of the posters on this thread viewing the athlete as a big dumb grunt. Check out how many varsity sports there are at the Ivys.</p>

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<p>I believe I posted this on another forum, but at the University of Chicago (which is known as perhaps the most academically challenging of any university) the football team has a higher average (college) GPA than the student body as a whole. This is particularly interesting since everyone must take the famous Chicago “Core.”</p>