Scenario for Admissions Disappointment

<p>One of my all-time great heroes is Kirk Varnedoe who passed away last year. Varnedoe was a football player at Williams who went on to get a PhD at Stanford and then become an influential curator at the Museum of Modern Art. He, to me, personified the brilliant, extroverted, talented athlete that top colleges attract and encourage. In a touching and funny tribute to Varnedoe (“Last of the Metrozoids” The New Yorker, 5/10/04) Adam Gopnik describes how Varnedoe never lost that ability to reach out and influence people’s lives with his intellect and enthusiasm – whether he was coaching little league football in Central Park or lecturing thousands on the meaning of art at the National Gallery.</p>

<p>I have to admit that before my son went to Williams I was pretty much at best disinterested in or at worse disdainful of college athletes. I went to a Big Ten university and thought that far too much energy was devoted to football. Now that I’ve had the privilege of knowing some of these athletes and seen close up their devotion, skill, and commitment I’ve changed my opinion. These kids are wonderful. They have both physical skill and intellectual prowess – an awesome combination. The world needs more Kirk Varnedoe’s.</p>

<p>The thing about Athletics is that it’s a huge business. Maybe not for the ivies, but at a lot of schools that have serious athletic programs (state schools, and some of the higher ranked schools like BC, Duke, UNC and others) the athletic program is an economic beast unto itself. The college receives a ton of money from ticket sales, television broadcasts and other sports related deals. They pay their athletes nothing, in fact the athletes often pay them for an “education” than many won’t even complete (check the graduation rates for this year’s NCAA march madness brackets), and the NFL/NBA/Other league essentially gets a free farm system where they pay nothing to develop talent. In the end the ones who lose are the kids, the athletes who work exceptionally hard and receive no pay for it until and unless they make it to the pros, and the serious academic students who were rejected because there was no room for them.</p>

<p>It’s in extra curriculars (whether athletic, artistic or other) where students display not only their talent but their work ethic and I think that’s what selective colleges see when looking at an application from an accomplished athlete or musician. As has been pointed out by many posters on many threads, colleges are looking to build a class and they can’t take every concert pianist or high jumper. At some point it becomes a bit like the job market. What bothers me about the athlete bashing (other than my belief that it is based on faulty information) is the sense I get that it’s being raised because some need to find someone to blame for a bad admissions outcome. Blame an athlete because he took the space your kid deserved - in order to build up one’s own child, another, anonymous child has to be denigrated. It feels poisonous to me, and not in the least helpful for anyone. Really, I don’t think anyone ‘deserves’ admission anywhere. Accept that it’s ultimately random, fate, out of your hands - it’s bad form to continue to put down a class of people. We might as well be arguing that we heard that someone who was mean was admitted, and it’s just not fair.</p>

<p>The debate about the role of college athletics at institutions such as Williams has been debated recently amongst the faculty.</p>

<p>The NYTimes in a 2002 article highlighted this debate:</p>

<p>AMHERST-WILLIAMS: The Biggest Little Game in America; Where Winning Breeds Criticism<br>
By BILL PENNINGTON (NYT)
Published: November 9, 2002</p>

<p>At Williams, and similar colleges in the region, the question is: Can an institution prized for its academics harmoniously house a powerhouse athletic program, even as it is defined by Division III, in which recruiting and athletic scholarships are prohibited and in which the football coach can double as the assistant track coach? </p>

<p>‘‘We must assert the primacy of academics; we’re not here to produce professional athletes,’’ said Stephen C. Sheppard, a Williams economics professor who helped write an in-house report last spring that outlined an overemphasis on athletics. ‘‘We’re getting uncomfortably close to the Division I model. A great athletic experience does not mean your football team must be undefeated. We always hear about the life lessons sports teaches, so wouldn’t the odd loss here and there be therapeutic?’’…</p>

<p>These students (athletes) are referred to as coaches’ ‘‘tips’’ because they were designated on a list devised by coaches and submitted to the college admissions department during the application process. These students, Williams officials say, have average SAT scores of 1300 to 1350 and are ranked in the top 10 percent of their high school class. The average SAT score for the latest freshman class at Williams, including athletes, was 1408, and those students typically had a class rank in the top 5 percent. </p>

<p>The disparity may not seem great, but because 80 percent of applicants to Williams are rejected, every slot in an incoming freshman class of 525 is scrutinized and highly valued. With 66 tipped athletes gaining admission and another 20 applicants admitted who are termed athletic ‘‘protects’’ – those whose grades and scores meet the usual academic standards and who were also singled out by coaches – the number of athletes admitted has led to a campus controversy. Until the recent release of the in-house report, many Williams faculty members had no idea that athletics played some role in the admission of roughly 16 percent of the student body. </p>

<p>‘‘When the faculty heard those numbers, there was more than surprise; it was perhaps outrage,’’ said Lee Y. Park, chairwoman of the chemistry department. ‘‘There is a significant portion of the faculty that thinks we’ve gone too far in our pursuit of athletic success.’’…</p>

<p>With 31 varsity teams, nearly 40 percent of the Williams student body plays an intercollegiate sport…</p>

<p>‘‘There is no question the vast majority of athletes I’ve encountered are committed to their academics,’’ Park said. ‘‘But I have had a few students in my classes who were athletes and I wondered why they were here. Academics were secondary to them. We have to do something about that, and we’re not the only schools looking into the role of athletics in the same way.’’ </p>

<p>Wesleyan University in Middletown, Conn., joined Williams and Amherst this year in reducing the number of tipped athletes admitted to 66 (from 72 for Williams). Bowdoin College in Brunswick, Me., reduced its number from 99 to 79…</p>

<p>A key factor in the discussions at each of the colleges was the 2001 publication of ‘‘The Game of Life: College Sports and Education Values,’’ by James Shulman and William Bowen, a former Princeton president. The book was harshly critical of the effect athletics has on academics and focused on how small elite colleges, like those in New England, are not immune. </p>

<p>The book advanced the phrase ‘‘culture of athletics,’’ and it was meant to describe how athletes take over the social fabric of some colleges and hurt the classroom dynamic in others. Some of that was borne out when Williams surveyed its students recently. </p>

<p>Morton Owen Schapiro, Williams’s president, calls Bowen a mentor and has recently overhauled some housing and classroom policies to moderate some of the effects delineated in ‘‘The Game of Life’’ and in Williams’s own study of athletics.</p>

<p>From the Williams College “Report on Varsity Athletics” as reported in the Williams Record May 6, 2002:</p>

<p>…40-45 percent of non-athletes believe that the athletic culture is too pervasive at Williams and over half of all students think that their status at athletes or non-athletes defines them at Williams…</p>

<pre><code>The report describes a social scene at Williams that is fairly segregated along athletic lines, according to non-varsity athletes. “Teams are characterized as ‘dominant’ or ‘significant’ in the social life of the College by three-quarters of [non-athletes]…"
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<p>The report also finds that athletes, especially male athletes, are significantly more likely to be involved in disciplinary situations than non-athletes: athletic admits were more likely than the student body as a whole to receive probation, suspension or expulsion; about twice as likely to receive “discuss/warnings;” and three times as likely to be found guilty of honor violations…</p>

<p>Though students generally do not find that athletics detracts from their education, the academic faculty is significantly less enthusiastic. Thirty-six percent of the faculty believes that varsity athletes are less engaged than non-varsity athletes…</p>

<p>In terms of grading, the FCA found that while the GPAs of varsity athletes as a whole are 0.13 lower than that of non-varsity athletes, and the GPA of male varsity athletes – excluding two teams, which were not identified – was 0.08 below male non-varsity athletes, “the mean GPA of the two weakest men’s teams was much lower than that for male varsity athletes in general.” </p>

<pre><code>Further, the FCA identified 38 of the 805 courses offered at the College as “easy” courses. “Football players…are 47 percent more likely than students who are not football players to take easy courses, and men’s ice hockey players are 93 percent more likely than other students to take easy courses,” reads the report.
</code></pre>

<p>“In the end the ones who lose are the kids, the athletes who work exceptionally hard and receive no pay for it until and unless they make it to the pros…”</p>

<p>My son has always had a lot of dreams and goals. One major one, which has kept him going through hours of practice time (much of it alone in the dark), is the dream of putting on a college uniform and being part of the college athletic experience. When we met with Coach at X (a top Ivy), Coach told us that he wanted to get to know us, the parents, because if S attends X, Coach is the adult with whom S will have the most interaction. The bonding among teammates, the relationships formed with coaches, and the thrill of competition…and you say these kids “LOSE”!! (also-remember that NONE of the athletes are bound to continue the sport at an Ivy or a DIII school- even after they are admitted to the school as a recruit)</p>

<p>We know a young man who graduated last year from Haverford. He competed in his sport all 4 years- was not an impact player. He began medical school this past fall. His closest friendships and his most memorable college moments are from his experiences on the team and in competition. The young man suffered the untimely death of his father during his senior year, and the way the team and coaches gathered around him was instrumental in his making it through the pain.</p>

<p>My son’s sport happens to be a lifelong activity and not a “revenue” sport. However, it is an important sport to many of the Ivys and top LACs. Whatever school’s name is on the front of my son’s chest in 2006, I know he will represent that school with pride, focus and determination- in his athletics as well as in his academics. Whatever help he gets with admissions, we welcome it with open arms!</p>

<p>To Hormesis- “My original point was that the Ivy League was not always this tough to get into. (You focus on the 1960s thing to dismiss it as a myth). Yale didn’t have to compete students until after World War II, Stanford’s admit rate was 85% in 1951, Harvard’s average verbal SAT was 583 in 1952, Yale’s average verbal was 603 in 1957. Competition didn’t spice up until the 1960s. It’s as if showing Ivy League graduates in the 1950s were not that bright by today’s standards was sacrilege. I was trying to show sadness in the fact that intellectually bright students couldn’t pick their “dream school” today as they may have before. That a winner take all society that has made the US great has also had an immense downside and that there is now a risk of greater and greater disappointment and the emergence of schadenfreude especially when things that are seemingly unfair occur, e.g. the admission of so many ‘less qualified’ athletes, special interests, legacies, donors, URM, etc. Does it do anyone any good when kids at Stanford and Yale who didn’t get into Harvard can feel such extreme remorse?”</p>

<p>Hormesis-- I must disagree. You are hearkening back to the so-called golden age when academically talented Jews, Asians, African Americans, etc. didn’t even bother applying to the Ivy League. An academically talented kid from the Bronx who today is a highly prized target at Dartmouth would have ended up at City College in the 1950’s-- access, money, parental fears of the wild’s of NH, etc. keeping him or her close to home. Brilliant women from all over the country lived at home and commuted to whichever State Teacher’s college or local nursing school was available… since teaching, nursing and their adjuncts (library science, etc.) were the only professional careers they were encouraged to pursue. Air travel was expensive; only the rich could indulge their fantasies of going to college far from home.</p>

<p>You prefer this scenario? Of course kids could have a “dream school” and then get in to it… as long as the kid who was dreaming was white, male, Protestant, had college graduates as parents, and lived on the East Coast.</p>

<p>Despite the angst of those who have to “settle” for a school allegedly further down the food chain (let’s all feel sorry for the kid at Northwestern or JHU who didn’t get into Harvard), seems to be the allegedly meritocratic Higher Ed system is a tad better than back in the good old days.</p>

<p>How about mustering up some anger over the states who have eviscerated the budgets of the State U. system, who favor capital spending on basketball stadiums over investment in professors of Nano-technology? Seems to me the culprit in the “winner takes all” mentality are the politicians who refuse to keep the State U’s competitive, and thereby are abandoning a huge chunk of their constituents. </p>

<p>My State flagship costs 16K per year instate; 29 or so OOS. I can’t remember the last time a kid from my area managed to graduate in 4 years. The pre-meds can’t get into Orgo; the engineers can’t take the required physics sequence in time, the Comp Sci kids end up having to do summer school, at extra $ if they want to take the more popular courses.</p>

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<p>I absolutely agree with you. All talents should be valued. I believe that much more scholarship money is awarded to top athletes than to excellent musicians, actresses or dancers, so it seems that colleges value their athletes more than their artists, no?</p>

<p>Quoting Hormeis:>> It’s as if showing Ivy League graduates in the 1950s were not that bright by today’s standards was sacrilege.I was trying to show sadness in the fact that intellectually bright students couldn’t pick their “dream school” today as they may have before. >></p>

<p>Quoting Blossom:>>You are hearkening back to the so-called golden age when academically talented Jews, Asians, African Americans, etc. didn’t even bother applying to the Ivy League.>></p>

<p>Blossom is being overly generous. Jews, Asians, African-Americans would not have been admitted. The good old days when it was easier for intellectually bright students to get admitted into their dream schools? It’s all a matter of who you were, and it did not have to do with intelligence or achievement. Let’s not bring the good old days back. They weren’t good for a lot of people.</p>

<p>Whoa…Those of you with student athletes- I don’t think anyone in this discussion was saying that ALL athletes are dumb jocks!! I have a good friend who’s d was a top tennis player at Brown a couple of yrs ago. She was also a top student. SHE is the kind of person, to my mind who is the “student athlete.” This girl could have had a free ride at BC, but she chose to go to Brown, where she got no money, because of the quality of the education she would get there. HOWEVER, while she was on the team, there was a boy who was a tennis super star at Brown. HE is the type of person I refer to when I complain about athletic acceptances that I consider to be unfair. He had gotten into Brown for tennis alone and was NOT qualified academically. He was tutored all the way through and just graduated by the skin of his teeth. Did he take advantage of the level of academics that is offered at Brown? Perhaps he would have fit in better at a less selective school and have let someone, who would have contributed to a higher level of intellectual discussion in the classroom go to Brown.</p>

<p>Likewise the boy from our hs who I referred to earlier who was just accepted to Brown. Someone on an earlier post questioned the accuracy/honesty of my description. This is a kid who’s father micro-managed his football activities and who is well known in the hs as someone who is not in any way shape or form a “good” student. The parent worked the system because he knew the power of athletic admissions. </p>

<p>Take another example. The boy who went through our school system and whom I’ve known since he was in 2nd grade. His mother told me last spring that he hadn’t applied to any colleges because he had taken so little interest in school that he wouldn’t have gotten into any place. In her words “Yale wasn’t even on the radar screen.” They spent $30,000 to send him to a private school where he went for a 5th year of high school and played lacrosse. He will now be going to Yale. Intelligent or not intelligent, did he make up for 12 years of not accumulating knowledge in one year?? </p>

<p>Another earlier poster referred to the amount of time the college athletes have to devote to their sports in college and how it makes it difficult for them to maintain high grades. Well that’s AFTER they are in college. High school sports is not any more demanding than commitments to music, debate, theatre or many other activities.</p>

<p>My original point is that there are some very bright kids who also play sports like soozievt’s d and my friend’s d, the tennis player. They make a HUGE contribution to the colleges they go to in many many ways. This to my mind is what constitutes building a “well rounded” class. A class where there are actors, artists, athletes, writers, scientists etc. I believe the athletes who have performed at a high academic level should go to the schools that are at their level and those athletes who have achieved less academically should go to the colleges where there is an appropriate standard of selectivity.</p>

<p>Certainly the fact that bright students are rejected is tough to deal with for them.</p>

<p>I’m not sure it serves much of a purpose when the marketers of consulting services mislead current students to think that they were once shoo-ins to be admitted. Yales scores from the 60s may be viewed in a slightly different way…the verbal and math class medians for the 1966 cohort were 99th %tile. Their 25th %tile pont was 98th %tile V and 96th %tile math. Even their 10th %tile point was 96thV and 90th M. Its always been very difficult to be admitted, and Mr Greene’s data is misleading … in addition to being wrong.</p>

<p>The OP point is simply the nugget that its really tough to get in. Its common to overestimate your chances. There are ways to insulate yourself from serious disappointments if you do some investigations and reading, and use some common sense.</p>

<p>Dadx:</p>

<p>Do we have information about the number of SAT-takers in 1966 and what percent of the school-age population they represented? One argument that has been made is that far more students are headed to 4 year colleges and far more are taking the SAT. So while the top students were admitted to HYP in 1966, there was not as much competition among them for more or less the same number of college slots as there is now.
I think one problem is that may families’ perception of dream school has not sufficiently expanded to include schools that were always great or have become excellent in the span of just a couple of decades. As Interesteddad has said many times, outside of HYPSM, the competition is much less fierce.
Anyway, I’d love to see info on 1966. I tried to google but gave up.</p>

<p>Andi…well said.
There are many athletes who are top students as well as top athletes.
The guy drafted #1 in this years NFL draft graduated college in 2 1/2 years…WHILE PLAYING DI football. Mike Mussina, pitcher for the Yankees graduated from Stanford with a degree in economics. Shane Battier is in the NBA, he went there AFTER he graduated from Duke.
The point is that those athletes who would not get into a school without their sport, are given an opportunity that non athletes would not be given.</p>

<p>Actually, I think the OP’s point was that things aren’t always fair. If you know that athletes may be recruited for a spot for which you are perfectly qualified, then add that factor into the mix when you select the schools on your application list. Don’t assume that these things don’t happen, and make a realistic list. Then you won’t have to yell and scream and cry about athletes or affirmative action or legacies or anything else because you will have gotten into a school where you’ll be happy.</p>

<p>My S, though not an athlete in mainstream sports, is an accomplished athlete in competitive martial arts at the international level. He trains many hours per week, and has for over 7 years. He has won many gold medals and enjoys the conditioning and preparation. He will be training in China again this summer and plans to continue in the sport in college. He was admitted into his first choice school, the University of Chicago, for this fall. He sees no contradiction between his athletic interests and his scholarly interests. He has high test scores and writes great essays, but he also believes that his athletic commitment may have helped him gain admission, but who knows. It is, though, a part of who he is, and may indeed weigh, along with his great sense of humor, in the decision making process of the admissions committee. As some one mentioned somewhere, schools tend to enroll a “class” not just individuals.</p>

<p>Andi, I truly do not believe you did ANYTHING backwards. You did everything exactly right, given the type of student your son is and the interests he has. The additional thing that I would have suggested was for him to make it a project to find some schools that are not as selective, some even not selective at all, that could be a good fit for him. That is the tough part about picking colleges. It is always fun to cherry pick the name schools right off the top. The challenge comes in finding the gems that can give you what you want that are not as well known. For him to just pick some schools as possible safeties would not have done anything. He would now be in the same situation as a number of kids I know who are only accepted to schools they truly don’t like. They added the schools onto their list with no real thought or intent of going there, but just to have the “safety” requirement filled. In my book, they are no better off than your son is. The fact of the matter is that if he just needs a school to attend in the fall, there are a number of possiblilities that will be happy to snatch him up if he gives them a commitment up front. THe problem for your son and a number of kids is that they do not have any options that well fit them, and it is a distinct possibility given their mindsets, that a certain environment is really so much better for them, that it would be preferable to wait and try to get it than to do time elsewhere.</p>

<p>Well said. As the graduate of two state schools, Rutgers and UNC, and now working at another state school, Wisconsin, I deeply resent the underfunding of state institutions by mean-spirted legislatures.</p>

<p>hormesis3,
thanks for the article - I’ve been curious as to the size of the tip factor (both from SAT/GPA and number of students tipped in). It’s too bad that this information is not more readily available, as it would help athletes and non-athletes weigh their chances just a bit more realistically. </p>

<p>I think these numbers support the annecdotal evidence on both sides of the arguement. If you assume an average 75 point tip (we’ll pretend for a moment that the SAT means something - willing suspension of disbelief), most tipped athletes will more or less be within the range of all admits - to the ability of the SAT to discriminate differences (I think 30 points per section). The outliers are the ones that tend to stick in our thoughts - both the unimaginative and the brilliant. </p>

<p>I think that many colleges do provide clues on their websites about the relative importance of sports. The Williams website projects that sports are a pretty important part of college experience. My son, who is not an athlete, took the hint and didn’t apply - but it was from a ‘fit’ perspective, not the admissions gamble. On the other hand, a classmate, who is athletic, received a fabulous scholarship at Conn College, and will probably enjoy it a great deal.</p>

<p>idad -
the non-mainstream sports bring their own interests. I hope I get to meet your son on Family Weekend!</p>

<p>ohio mom: on the prospie overnight, S met a group of students who study the same Art as he does and that represent Chicago at national collegiate competitions. He is determined now to help bring the gold to Chicago. (I am already looking forward to family weekend.)</p>

<p>If “URM” or “legacy” was substituted everywhere in this thread for the word “athlete”,would you be so quick to criticize? As far as I know, it doesn’t take the URM’s or the legacies hours a day working on their “status” like it does the athletes, so if anyone should be given a break on SAT scores or other admissions factors, it seems it should be the athletes.</p>