<p>So, uh, any UNC Robertson applicants hear back today?</p>
<p>Got the rejection on the Duke side about an hour ago. 
Couldnāt apply at UNC b/c of the Morehead, which I also lost. This is doing wonders for my self-esteem. :P</p>
<p>LadyD, I know you are trying to sort through what is best for your son and your family. I hope you can find the right decision for your family and the right place for your son. </p>
<p>I really need to comment on some of the posts that suggested NMFs should be getting UNC scholarships (beyond the $1000). Why? Is being a NMF really a defining predictor for everyoneās future success? Why dismiss leadership roles and ECās? I can see how NMF can be used to flag a student to be looked at more closely for scholarship consideration, but only for consideration, not for guaranteed scholarship. Itās a fact that UNC doesnāt give tons of merit money. If it is better for a student (and their familyās finances) to attend a school that is more generous with merit money, then that is where the student should go. How fortunate it is to have that option. Students who didnāt make NMF status wonāt have that option. We all want our kids to be successful and we all want them to be rewarded for their achievements. Getting accepted to UNC is a great achievement. </p>
<p>I also donāt think anyone needs to worry about all the top NC students leaving the state to study elsewhere. Quite a few of the very top students from my sonās school are freshman at UNC right now. It was their first choice and they are exactly where they want to be. Take a look at the instate freshman stats for the last two years. Iām not seeing a downward trend. </p>
<p>Instate 2009: CR ā 639, Math ā 657, Writing ā 624</p>
<p>Instate 2010: CR ā 643, Math ā 658, and Writing ā 634</p>
<p>I donāt really know much about Alabamaās Honorās program. A quick google showed that a student is accepted into it with a 1250 CR/Math SAT. The 2010 UNC freshman average is 1301. Iām not at all attempting to minimize Alabamaās program, but it was brought up, and if the 1250 score is correct, then more than half of the UNC freshman class would be in Alabamaās honors program. </p>
<p>lutherjw ā Sorry about your disappointing news. Remember, you are a great student with wonderful achievements. Donāt let your disappointments define you. Good luck with your college path, wherever it takes you.</p>
<p>BuBC and eadad-Well said!</p>
<p>^^ lutherjw, I got rejected too. Oh well. This just gives me more time to work on my writing 
Traveling back and forth to Duke would be such a pain. </p>
<p>LadyD- I think Jambaby makes an excellent point. I donāt mean any disrespect, but I donāt see the lack of merit aid as being a huge problem here at UNC. They really have an excellent reputation for making UNC affordable, but obviously, it canāt possibly make it work for everyone. Alabama is a wonderful program and Iām sure your son could be successful at their Honors program.</p>
<p>āIs being a NMF really a defining predictor for everyoneās future success?ā</p>
<p>For academic success, it certainly can be one key predictor. And studentsā academic success is still (or should be) the most important criterion for determining a collegeās prestige.</p>
<p>BTWāthe UA Honors College average SAT M & CR composite is 1330. I guess I donāt see how that is inferior to UNCās stats. But maybe Iām missing something. </p>
<p>UAās Honors College is a school within a school: It offers the intimacy of an LAC with the research opportunities of a large university. </p>
<p>āI also donāt think anyone needs to worry about all the top NC students leaving the state to study elsewhere.ā</p>
<p>No one even remotely implied that ALL the top in-state students are opting to go out of state. But many undoubtedly are, and often for financial reasons. Read some of the threads under āAlabamaā for confirmation of this.</p>
<p>Iām glad so many kids from your childrenās high school have the financial wherewithal to attend UNC. Soā¦UNC will not lose top students from upper-income families. Thatās nice. But it will lose and is losing top students from financially squeezed middle-income families. I do not see how this can do anything but hurt UNC in the end. Will it end up being a school mainly for the children of the wealthy? Perhaps it is already heading in that direction.</p>
<p>KiplingerĀs Personal Finance magazine ranks the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill the best value in American public higher education for a ĀremarkableĀ 10th time in a row.</p>
<p>^ Yes, I know. And thatās nice. But it does not address the very real concerns of financially squeezed middle-income NC families, who are facing economic uncertainty during these turbulent times. </p>
<p>Coincidentally, I just finished reading a large Yankelovich study about U.S. consumersā economic anxieties and consequent belt-tightening. IOW, I am not making this stuff up, nor am I a lone voice crying in the wilderness. There have been countless recent surveys and articles about the economic fears of the middle class. Those fears and concerns are very real ā pace the good folks who publish Kiplingerās. </p>
<p>In the abstract, a $20,000 annual COA may seem like a real bargain, especially compared with the COAs of private colleges whose tuition rates have reached the level of utter insanity. But, in the concrete and specific, the fact that UNC is allegedly such a bargain is cold comfort for middle-income parents who cannot easily spare $20K/per year. Again, this is not exactly a newsflash: There have been many articles detailing the concerns of middle-income parents re the affordability of college. Middle-income families feel caught in the middle: unable to qualify for need-based aid yet also unable to cough up an extra $20K per year without batting an eye. Given the large number of articles and consumer surveys addressing this issue, I would respectfully suggest that I am scarcely the first person to bring up the topic, at CC or anywhere else.</p>
<p>Again, itās all relative. If you can fork over $20K per year without seriously denting your retirement savings or incurring any financial hardship, then more power to you. But many, many NC families cannot. Can you not see that this is a legitimate concern for those families? Can you not see that $20K is scarcely a bargain for many people, especially during these uncertain economic times?</p>
<p>And it is those people ā the middle-middle, as opposed to the upper-middle ā who are opting for out-of-state schools like Bama. And yes, that does equate to a brain-drain, especially as the trend continues and accelerates. I donāt see economic uncertainty disappearing any time soon. Au contraire, I think the āmiddle-middleā will feel increasingly concerned, especially as the boomers age and start worrying about retirement.</p>
<p>So, maybe wealthy smart kids will continue to flock to UNC. But middle-income smart kids like my son (whose stats definitely exceed the in-state UNC average) will be going elsewhere. </p>
<p>If high-achieving middle-income kids are squeezed out of UNCā¦well, I cannot see how that could possibly be good for UNC, especially in the long run.</p>
<p>Diane</p>
<p>I donāt see where you think middle-income students are getting squeezed out of UNC. I am most certainly not wealthy, but I am making do. I am willing to go into debt to receive my degree, to a certain point. I do not have any wealthy friends (unfortunately 
), but we are all seeming to manage being here. You are overreacting to a situation you havenāt even encountered yet. The way you talk, you would seem to rather your child not go to college than have to pay the bill.</p>
<p>After ālurkingā here for some time, in an attempt to learn as much as I can with a rising senior, I finally broke down and registered. I chose this user name in honor of you - Lady Di!</p>
<p>For Peteās sake ālet it die, Lady Diā!</p>
<p>Lady Diā
I find your posts rational & well researched. Perhaps some of the naysayers here need to walk a mile in your shoes. Iām in a similar boat as you & therefore get it. No other scholarship offers, though, so count yourself fortunate on that!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>UNC is certainly not the only school that looks at things holistically, in fact most highly selective schools doā¦the only difference is that some others, Yale for example, set the qualifying bar a bit higher before the holistic review takes place.</p>
<p>Any highly selective school could literally fill their classes several times over with kids who had the requisite numbersā¦in Yaleās case they could fill at least two classes with nothing but 4.0/2400/Sals or Vals. That said, they choose not to. In the four Yale info sessions I attended when my S was going through the undergrad process the Yale Adcomsā mantra was that they were looking for āinterestingā people to form an āinterestingā class. They also (just like UNC) stressed the importance of the essaysā¦one came right out and said āthis is your only chance to give yourself a voice and for you to humanize the numbers we are seeingā¦ā</p>
<p>Iāve never been told this directly but I would be willing to go out on a limb to say that UNC is also looking for āinterestingā people who while being high achievers academically have also found ways to excel in other thingsā¦in other words, they are multi- dimensional, have developed great time management skills and have learned that there is more to life than simply pounding the books 24/7ā¦life learning is a valuable asset in todayās world. Again, Iām only guessing but it sure would then seem reasonable to assume that some amount of merit monies would be directed to these āinterestingā people with the hope that they would matriculate and bring their interests, involvement and fervor to Chapel Hill.</p>
<p>UNC is one of the leading schools in the country in terms of percent of student volunteerismā¦which is somewhat amazing for a public (non secular) school. Usually youāll find that the leading volunteer schools are religiously affiliated, often Jesuit since it is part of their creed. </p>
<p>This hasnāt happened accidentally at UNCā¦their āformulaā if thatās what you want to call it, has been able to successfully identify kids who will not only academically succeed but also will come to campus, be involved and make a contribution to the overall campus community to enrich not only their lives but the lives of others. My guess, again and Iāll capitalize GUESS, is that when possible these are the people who see the significant merit awards because they are the individuals who will bring the most to campus with them. </p>
<p>This in no way diminishes the importance of scholarship because these people already have that base coveredā¦they are (for lack of better words) the best of the best in terns of being well rounded high achieving kids.</p>
<p>Schools like Bama use their Honors program to hope to steal away a few from other states to improve their overall profile and they are somewhat successful doing it. While the profile of the honors kids is high, they still represent a small pool of higher achieving kids within an overall much larger and much less qualified pool than the overall pool at UNC. </p>
<p>I mentioned my Dās situation at South Carolina previously. Itās overall profile is much like that at Bama. I canāt tell you how many times I heard my D comment about the lack of academic rigor in the few non Honors classes or classes within her major that she tookā¦she said her high school was much more difficult and that she believed that teachers were forced to ādumb downā the material to the level of the students. Lady D you are obviously free to think whatever you want but donāt kid yourself about a schoolās reputation based on itās honors programā¦itās a very small sampling and it is really important to remember that the college experience is really about what happens when classes end each day. Iād rather have my kid surrounded 24/7 by peers than be part of a small peer group that is VERY different from the rest of the student body.</p>
<p>The holistic approach in your case probably has hurt your S to some degreeā¦being home schooled has kept him from having the well rounded application that shouts out for attention when merit monies are being distributed but that does not mean that UNCās formula for doling out those monies is flawed or in some way wrong. Historically it has worked for them and they have real data to support it, not conjecture.</p>
<p>We are all proud of our kids and you should be as wellā¦he has done much to give you reason to be proud.</p>
<p>Since your earliest posts I have questioned the methodology you used in the application process because the schools were so very different in profile (all over the board like App State?) for a higher achieving kid like your S. You seemed to focus on geography more than what the school offered both educationally and financially. There are a lot of LACs and smaller private schools (much more highly regarded than Bama or Arizona) that throw lots of money at kids like your Sā¦and there are a lot of books that identify those schools as well.</p>
<p>I think you would serve yourself (and your S) well to dial down the rhetoric about what you perceive to be a flawed process at UNC and re-look at your own processā¦it certainly was not without flaws. It looks from the outside to have been more of a shotgun approachā¦throw a lot of things up and see what sticks, as opposed to a more researched and refined approach which given the whole circumstances probably would have served your S better.</p>
<p>Iāve been on these boards for a long time and those who have been here with me can tell you that I really try to be a voice of reason and try to keep the boards on topic and from becoming full of false information and vitriol-especially after decisions come out. </p>
<p>I really do hope things turn out well for your son but the diatribe is getting tiresome and old.</p>
<p>Good luckā¦</p>
<p>Lady D-- IMO, UNC-CH and the entire UNC system is a wonderful, wonderful example of a quality state funded education system. Us in-staters are very blessed to have a variety of different, cost effective universities to choose from. To boot, most if not all of these schools are quite good and have their own strengths and weaknesses in different departments (i.e. thereās nothing wrong with going to App or State or UNC-C or UNC-W, theyāre all good schools and can provide a good, if not prestigious education) Appalachian has one of the lowest sticker prices Iāve ever heard of for a state university.</p>
<p>Secondly, UNCās sticker price for an in-stater is probably going to be closer to $15k than $20k. (Tuition, room and board are about $6k per semester for me, so factoring in an extra thousand for books and/or mealplan seems reasonable). </p>
<p>So I donāt really see what the UNC and NC public school systems are doing wrong considering the circumstances. Yes, some families wonāt be able to afford the sticker price, but there are a variety of other options. If you canāt afford UNC-CH at $15k per year, look at Appalachian at $8k per year. If you canāt afford $8k per year, look into one of the many CCs available. </p>
<p>Bottom line: I think UNC-CH and the NC public university system does one of the best jobs of making higher education accessible to people of a variety of different socio-economic backgrounds. Yes, some people do slip through the cracks, but I donāt think thereās nearly the middle class exodus away from UNC-CH that youāre implying. Furthermore, I think itās unfair to systematically blame UNC-CH for being unafforable before you get your FA package and appeal (if necessary).</p>
<p>ArtemisDea beat me to it. After reading several pages, I kept asking myself where the 20K per year figure (instate) was coming from. S1 graduated in 2009 (NCSU). S2 is a jr.(ECU) There has never been a year that our expenses have been even close to 20K.</p>
<p>Thank you, mommydeerest. :)</p>
<p>Well, if people are determined not to get it, then thereās not much I can do to convince them.</p>
<p>I guess Yankelovich just made up all of its data about the worries and concerns of middle-income families in todayās economy. ;)</p>
<p>mommydeerest ā itās not too late to get OOS scholarship offers! We recently contacted Auburn about their full-ride scholarship, which we had not heard about until recently. The scholarship deadline was Dec. 1, but they encouraged DS to apply and said scholarships were still available. :)</p>
<p>I have to agree with eadad, ArtemisDea, etc. Honestly, your ranting was alright from the beginning because itās understandable; now, itās becoming, as other posters have said, old and somewhat annoying. This board was meant to HELP UNC students and more importantly PROSPECTIVE UNC students, but virtually every thread that has to do with something remotely related to money have been filled with your rants.</p>
<p>I agree with eadad in your application approach. To be honest, your blaming schools who are not known for giving out that much in merit aid (BECAUSE THEIR COST OF ATTENDANCE IS SO LOW TO BEGIN WITH) for your sporadic application process. As mentioned before, many private schools give out very good scholarship money and financial aid. For example, I received a $25,000/year scholarship to Tulane (they have a roughly $50,000 COA) BEFORE Financial Aid, and given my familyās speculation, weād receive about $10,000 more in aid, putting our total expenses/year around $15,000 for a private education at an honors college with a great reputation.</p>
<p>That being said, I really, sincerely hope you listen to this constructive criticism in good light. You simply refused to listen to other posters who had very valid points and are adamant in your beliefs. </p>
<p>It started out as an understandable contention, but now itās turning into an ad hominem fallacy by bashing UNC and UNC-system schools simply because they wonāt give your son aid that is already difficult to attain. I think youāre forgetting that these are public schools with funding from the government (I think UNC only receives 25% from the state, the lowest of the group, with the rest relying HEAVILY on state funding) and the economy is also taking a toll on them. So donāt act like theyāre singling you, or any family, out because they wonāt give you son scholarship money, because theyāre trying to find a way to just PROVIDE that education with as little cutting as possible.</p>
<p>Besides, you havenāt even received your Financial Aid package yet, and if youāre āthatā middle-class that you canāt afford $17k/year (not $20k), youāll probably get a pretty solid amount from the schools.</p>
<p>Pretty much, if you donāt have anything nice to say, donāt say anything at all. And bashing the UNC school system for not giving your son a scholarship falls into this category. I do hope you look at this in good light and see that sometimes you canāt always be right.</p>
<p>IĀm sorry to keep this going, but my words were quoted in one of the last posts, so I will respond.</p>
<p>
Yes, NMF is one predictorĀ thatĀs why I suggested it should be a way to flag students to be looked at more closely. There are plenty of students with academic success who are not NMFs and, if weĀre looking at stats, IĀd guess there are also plenty of non-NMF students with higher GPAs than their NMF peers.</p>
<p>
Well, the NC stats were for all instate students, not Honor students. I donĀt know what the average SAT is for UNC Honors. My son was invited to be a First Year Fellow last year and the letter said the average SAT for that group was 1471. My guess is the average for the Honors Program is similar, maybe higher, but I donĀt know for sure.</p>
<p>
Nice that you assume you know me so well, as well as knowing all the families at our school. I assume you didnĀt really mean to make this personalĀ How about my H and I have worked our butts off over our almost 29 years of marriage, didnĀt live above our means, saved for our kids to go to college and saved for retirement. Am I fortunate? I certainly am. I am also very appreciative of the life that my H and I have worked for and managed to give our family. My H is a doctor and we paid for his entire med school education with student loans, along with paying off all of my student loans. In fact, we still make a payment towards his loan every monthĀ and itĀs not a small one. Also, as for my own personal background, I grew up walking in lower middle class shoes. </p>
<p>LadyD, IĀm really sorry that you canĀt afford to send your son to UNC if that is where he wants to go, but it is really great that your son has other good and more affordable options. Congratulations to him on his success.</p>
<p>I agree with BUandBC82 and others that standardized test scores give you a very limited picture of an applicant and his or her potential. </p>
<p>I also donāt think, though, that thereās any case to be made for saying that UNCās policies are causing it lose out on high-scoring students, or that high-scoring students are fleeing elsewhere (as LadyD seemed to be implying).</p>
<p>In 2009, 42.6% of all of high school seniors in the state who scored 1400 or higher on the SAT enrolled at UNC-Chapel Hill.</p>
<p>Edit: Responding to LadyDās and BUandBC82ās inquiries: The median SAT score in the UNC Honors Program is 1480. See <a href=āhttp://honorscarolina.unc.edu/[/url]ā>http://honorscarolina.unc.edu/</a></p>
<p>Interesting</p>
<p>Lady D</p>
<p>Iād like to throw something else on the table for your consideration. In an earlier post I mentioned that what happens AFTER classes end each day truly determines oneās undergrad experience. By that I meant (for lack of a better term) the āhappiness factor.ā</p>
<p>Significant research has proven that the degree of undergrad success can be measured by how happy/well adjusted a student is in their undergrad environment. This is discussed often in the Pre med forums when so many angst ridden high schoolers are trying to figure out how to āgameā the system by picking the ārightā undergrad school in order to (in their opinion) gain an edge in Med school admissions down the road.</p>
<p>The answer that everyone gives them is that the place they will be happiest and will be best able to excel both academically and socially will be the school that benefits them the most.</p>
<p>I bring this up because one thing that seems to be missing in your evaluations (at least by what you have mentioned) is overall school profile. I am going to focus on one thing as an example of something you should be thinking about.</p>
<p>At Bama 5,000 undergrads, 27 percent of the student body are in fraternities or sororities of that 3000 men are in fraternities alone. This is a HUGE number and says that Greek life both dominates and more importantly dictates the social scene there.</p>
<p>By comparison, 2800 undergrads or 17 percent of the student body at UNC are Greek. As has been mentioned here many times in the past, choosing to be Greek at UNC is an option not a virtual mandate for an active social life.</p>
<p>Your S has been home schooled which in and of itself is going to add to the degree of adjustment and āculture shockā he will experience as a first year studentā¦donāt get me wrong, all kids experience some degree adjustment and culture shock as first years but the socialization process for your S will be a little more uphill nonetheless. Throwing him into a environment that lives for SEC football Saturday afternoons and is so heavily Greek could put even more stress on his period of adjustment to college life.</p>
<p>This is in no way saying he should go to UNCā¦rather Iām just trying to point out that there are MANY more things to look at when making a decision than cost of attendance, size of classes and whatever rank USNWR assigns to a a school. </p>
<p>Iāll be the first to admit that I donāt have a clue about your Sās personality but even my very outgoing social butterfly of daughter found a degree of initial culture shock when she went from a medium sized private school (200 grads in her class) to USC. The heavy Greek influence on the social scene (even though that was something she wanted in her college selection) can be overwhelming even for the strongest willed kid and often creates heartache and pain for those who simply donāt fit inā¦</p>
<p>I truly wish the best for your son and am just trying to throw out a few more things for you to consider other than price tag because in reality, we as parents, cannot put a price tag on our kids emotional health and well being.</p>
<p>Again, good luck.</p>