<p>CGM:
These are your choices. The Amish have theirs. I think it is unfair to make any judgements. What they did or do brings no harm to anyone. I was very touched by the story in todays NYT in which all the Amish involved expressed concern for the family of the shooter. That gave me more food for thought than anything else I’ve read about school shootings.</p>
<p>gla, I didn’t read that article but I had the same thoughts today about feeling terrible for the wife and children of the shooter. Not only did they lose a loved one, but they will have to live with the stigma and outrage that he caused and all the internal feelings associated with that, plus how others will be looking at their dad/husband. They are also in a terrible situation. The entire thing, all the way around, is an unfathomable tragedy that this man caused. I will never understand the people who commit suicide who take innocent others out with them. It is so sick as to be incomprehensible. Little girls? By someone who has children himself? Hard to even conceive of such a way of thinking.</p>
<p>CGM Have you read the articles about sexual abuse? I read one that literally gave me nightmares. THe one about the girl having all her teeth pulled because she tried to escape incest.</p>
<p>CGM, just another note is that I believe that most of the adults who left at the killer’s wishes indicated, and also sought help/phone, were either pregnant themselves or had infants with them. They also had kids to protect. By seeking help, they were benefitting the students as well, since they could not prevent the actions of the man by staying. He was weilding a gun.</p>
<p>Since when are teachers trained hostage negoiaters? Someone who stays after being ordered out could do more harm than good.</p>
<p>The Amish don’t practice situational ethics. They’re the real deal.</p>
<p>These unbalanced grudge bearers never walk into a police station to settle their beef with society or whomever.</p>
<p>Its always somewhere where they can have some confidence that they will be the only one with a weapon. There are myriad cases where what was truly needed was one more gun in the hands of the right person. Not one fewer. It is too bad that wasn’t the case yesterday.</p>
<p>Oh, I am sure the six year old could have handled a gun against this monster.</p>
<p>And the teacher? Puleeze. Guns create more problems, not fewer.</p>
<p>a trained negotiator no, but a responsible adult yes…other adults had been let out to call the authorities…I just don’t think I could have left 6 year olds like that…</p>
<p>zoosermom, that was my point…there is this talk about a god loving peaceful community who covers up their own misdeeds at the expense of children in the name of tradition and faith</p>
<p>there was this girl who brought to justice her brother who had been molesting her for years, and she feared for her younger siblings, so decided she needed to go to the police as her family knew and ignored it all</p>
<p>she was shunned by the community, and the perpetrater was forgiven for his “transgressions”</p>
<p>and this was not an isolated incident</p>
<p>my point is sometimes “tradition” when it comes to children is just wrong…sorry if that offends some, but I have been doing some research into the Amish after seeing that report…all is not so pure in the closed community…</p>
<p>I am in no way blaming the innocents in all of this, not at all, but for a community that claims to care so much about its children, it is just not the case</p>
<p>When I read the news yesterday on it, the first thing that went through my head was worrying it was the 1-room Amish school house <2 miles from my parent’s house. Thank God it wasn’t.</p>
<p>It saddened me deeply that someone would do such a thing to anyone, let alone children raised in a non-violence community (well…except for child/wife beating…but I’ll forget that one for now…). </p>
<p>It’s a shame that Lancaster has been getting nothing but bad press lately…</p>
<p>1st it was the Borden murder where the teen shot his girlfriend’s parents to death and then ran off with her last year.</p>
<p>Then the Floyd Landis fiasco…</p>
<p>Now the Amish schoolhouse seige…</p>
<p><em>sigh</em></p>
<p>CGM, do you really believe that the teachers and mothers with infants that were present had the OPTION to stay? I don’t. The killer had all the boys and adults leave. What if one says, “nope, I want to stay (oh, and with my infant in hand as well)”…this guy is gonna say, “well, OK, stay if you want”…nope. He had a gun. They had to comply. They were better off leaving and seeking help as they were no help there, as well as were in danger of being shot as well, along with their infants. One was pregnant I believe, as well. When someone has a gun, and orders you out of the building, you don’t have as many choices as you may think. As well, seeking help for those remaining is more productive.</p>
<p>CGM, I had read a bunch of such stories but the graphic story about the teeth horrified me. I guess there are hypocrites in every group.</p>
<p>and zoosermom, all in the name of traditon and faith…</p>
<p>as for the teacher, I don’t think we will ever know for sure…I jsut was wondering out loud</p>
<p>
And there are abusers in every group. I don’t condemn all Catholics for what their priests do. This school shooting was a horrible thing. Please don’t use it as a way to judge someone given a 'Sophie’s Choice." You think you probably wouldn’t have left the schoolhouse? I hope you will never have to find out.</p>
<p>GLA, I didn’t judge anyone. Just referred to something I had read recently in response to CGM’s posts.</p>
<p>KY Jelly? Oh gross.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/03/amish.shooting/index.html[/url]”>http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/03/amish.shooting/index.html</a></p>
<p>I wondered about the Amish response to this, as their tradition has pretty clear standards as to the value of children…the perpatrators of sexual abuse are often forgiven while those that “complain” are punished, shunned, etc…so I wondered aloud about the parents refusing to take a plane or helicopter to be with their shot children who lay dying sooner, but because of “tradtion” refused, yet will go in a car…so when it comes to tradition, it IS flexible, and wondered about the refusal to do whatever it took to get to their wounded child as fast a possible when there was an option, be declined…just a thought…</p>
<p>I just remember that in horrific circumstances like these people respond in ways that they’d never predict. Big, strong men may freeeze, tiny women may strike out. Many folks are so traumatized they may not even recall their reaction. The adults had moments to respond to a very confusing situation. How can i even begin to judge their actions.</p>
<p>I wonder what someone with some expertise in hostage situations would adivse as far as a teacher or another adult staying when ordered to leave. Even if the advice was to stay, that would take great courage.</p>
<p>The PA shooter seemed like such a sicko, there was not going to be any reasoning with him.</p>
<p>You would hard pressed not to find someone in any religion, political party or any other group who has done a bad thing. That doesn’t necessarily invalidate their other practices or beliefs.</p>
<p>The Amish are the victims here; let them cope as best they can.</p>
<p>I don’t think the adults in the classroom had much time to “think it over” if ordered out by someone weilding a gun. I imagine it might have been less than a minute. Even in the accounts of the perpertrator contacting the police on his cell and giving them a min. to leave the area or he’d commence shooting, they did not have enough time to get word to the police on the perimeter to evacuate and the guy started shooting his victims within a min. So, given how he wasn’t a “wait and see” person in this situation, I doubt there was opportunity for the female teachers and mothers with infants to negotiate with him about staying. He may have told them to leave or he’d shoot, as evidenced to exactly what happened when he gave such a demand to the police on the phone. I don’t think anyone here can say what they’d have done as you were not in the situation and have no information as to what was said or threatened and how much time they had to respond. The Amish present in the school, as well as their families are the victims.</p>
<p>Does it really matter what Amish believe and/or what other Amish people have done that isn’t good? If my child were a victim, I certainly wouldn’t want anyone to characterize all the beliefs of my religion and/or all others from my religious group who have not acted in upstanding ways to have any bearing on the situation or people in this tragedy. Nor should beliefs on one issue necessarily relate to beliefs on another issue or situation.</p>